new rule changes from gov council

[twokidsskatemom]

I have a question re the new changes  for pre juv and juv. If you can only have  a two jump combo AND a half loop is considered a whole jump, then what is a combo?Maybe I am not reading the rule changes the right way?
TIA!

[phoenix]

A combo would be any two jumps put right together, such as:

Axel/double loop

Double toe/loop

loop/toe loop

Basically to make the combo you can tack on either a loop or toe loop (single or double) after any other jump.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I have a question re the new changes  for pre juv and juv. If you can only have  a two jump combo AND a half loop is considered a whole jump, then what is a combo?Maybe I am not reading the rule changes the right way?
TIA!

You can have a sequence with more than two-- my dd has a double toe axel sequence, so I guess you are allowed to put something else on that

[twokidsskatemom]

So you can only have two jumps in the combos not three?And only two combos/ seq  not three? Is that what you understand Jumpingbeans Mom?

[jumpingbeansmom]

So you can only have two jumps in the combos not three?And only two combos/ seq  not three? Is that what you understand Jumpingbeans Mom?

Yes only 2 combos or sequences-- combos limited to 2 jumps, I guess sequences can be 3 though I am not sure how that works exactly.

I am wondering if we will start to see more reward (ie better placement) for nice clean jumps.   I know my daughter (10 years juvie) is still working her double doubles and as happens at first, they end up being cheated more often than not, but if her coach has her do less combinations, she gets beat by pure technical points by girls doing scads of poorly executed combinations.    I noticed on the ordinals in a recent competition, many of the combinations in juv were cheated but the simple math won out. 

In the end, it is probably better for a skater to learn a nice clean double (or so I think) before adding to it.

Also, only two spins, which I think is probably a good call-- I think there is ALOT packed into the juv programs in a short time and it seems like you cannot even tell if the kids can interpret or skate in between.

[twirly~girls~mom]

These changes are really going to drop the scores in Juv and Intermediate.  The skaters who have competed already and are in the top on Scoretracker are going to be tough to top now with all the cuts to the program requirements! Not that scoretracker means anything but as a tool to see who the top finishers are in those levels, it won't be nearly as accurate.

I like the changes for Juv...I wish they had left Intermediate alone though...maybe just a choreo sequence for the long to leave more time for the 3rd spin, but oh well!  We will be making changes after next week's competition. Bummer.

[twokidsskatemom]

A combo would be any two jumps put right together, such as:

Axel/double loop

Double toe/loop

loop/toe loop

Basically to make the combo you can tack on either a loop or toe loop (single or double) after any other jump.

I guess I should have worded that different. .
If  axle half loop double sal was considered a combo, but now they can only have two jumps in a combo, what would that be? a seq?Or was it always a seq?Is a combo just a double/ double with nothing in between? Toe tap?

[Schmeck]

In the ancient past (when my daughter was skating 3 years ago) a combination was two or more jumps where the second jump took off from the landing edge of the first jump - no shift in flow from one jump to the next.  A sequence involved some transition between the landing edge and the beginning edge of the next jump - those half loops, etc.

The only jump you could put on as a second jump to keep it a combination, and not a sequence, was some type of full loop or toe loop.  My wise-butt daughter, who learned all the single jumps in both directions, wanted to know why she couldn't do a lutz-lutz combo, by making the second lutz be the opposite direction one.  I believe her coach told her it was against the rules.

[FigureSpins]

Since your daughter stopped skating, half loops were reclassified as loop jumps, so a Flip-half-loop is now a combination, not a sequence.  In some of the levels, only two jumps are allowed in a combination, so a flip-half-loop-salchow is a three-jump combination now, whereas it would have been a sequence when your daughter skated.

I think (check me on this) if the level only allows two jumps in a combination and the skater does three, they get no points for the third jump under IJS scoring rules.  Is there a penalty under 6.0 or IJS?

However, the definition of a sequence is now more accurate, imo, because the half-loop really didn't require additional steps before the salchow.  It wasn't a "listed jump" so the older rule allowed it to create the sequence.  Once they listed it as an Loop variant, it changed the sequence to a combination.

Under the current rules:
A combination would be a Waltz-Loop or an Axel-Loop: no additional steps or changes.
A sequence would be a Loop-Waltz or a Loop-Axel: the Axel requires a FO takeoff edge, which is an "additional step."

I still wonder if a CW jump/CCW lutz was considered a sequence or a combination.  Is there really a rule?
Maybe her coach just didn't want it included for some reason.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I guess I should have worded that different. .
If  axle half loop double sal was considered a combo, but now they can only have two jumps in a combo, what would that be? a seq?Or was it always a seq?Is a combo just a double/ double with nothing in between? Toe tap?

I think half loop is a jump, so I think you cannot do that now (what you describe)-- and yes a double double is a combo with nothing in between, no change of edge (so they will always I think be 2loop or 2toe as the 2nd jump)

[jumpingbeansmom]

These changes are really going to drop the scores in Juv and Intermediate.  The skaters who have competed already and are in the top on Scoretracker are going to be tough to top now with all the cuts to the program requirements! Not that scoretracker means anything but as a tool to see who the top finishers are in those levels, it won't be nearly as accurate.

I like the changes for Juv...I wish they had left Intermediate alone though...maybe just a choreo sequence for the long to leave more time for the 3rd spin, but oh well!  We will be making changes after next week's competition. Bummer.

Agreed,  I think they almost have to throw out the pre June 1 scores and start again or it is apples vs oranges

[fsk8r]

Under the current rules:
A combination would be a Waltz-Loop or an Axel-Loop: no additional steps or changes.
A sequence would be a Loop-Waltz or a Loop-Axel: the Axel requires a FO takeoff edge, which is an "additional step."

I still wonder if a CW jump/CCW lutz was considered a sequence or a combination.  Is there really a rule?
Maybe her coach just didn't want it included for some reason.

Reading the description of the current rules about combinations and sequences, I would say a CW jump / CCW lutz is perfectly acceptable. I think coaches might have their own reasons for not including it, but there's nothing anywhere which says you have to jump only one direction.
And having watched a little friend do a lutz-lutz combo it looks pretty cool... I just haven't persuaded her coach to put it in. I suspect it's more to do with convention than rules.

[twokidsskatemom]

I think half loop is a jump, so I think you cannot do that now (what you describe)-- and yes a double double is a combo with nothing in between, no change of edge (so they will always I think be 2loop or 2toe as the 2nd jump)

so is a jump half loop jump a seq? so a double flip half loop  double sal  a seq so its ok to have three jumps?

[FigureSpins]

A half loop counts as a loop now, so this would be a three-jump combination:

Jump - lands on BO edge
Half loop - takes off from BO edge / lands on BI edge
Jump - has to be a salchow or opposite-direction walley - takes off from BI edge and lands on a BO edge.

The limit's two jumps in a combination - your example is three, one too many.

double flip-half loop-double sal - not a sequence - that half-loop in the middle makes it a combination now, not a sequence.  The skater would have to put a step or turn in between the jumps to make it a sequence.

[twokidsskatemom]

A half loop counts as a loop now, so this would be a three-jump combination:

Jump - lands on BO edge
Half loop - takes off from BO edge / lands on BI edge
Jump - has to be a salchow or opposite-direction walley - takes off from BI edge and lands on a BO edge.

The limit's two jumps in a combination - your example is three, one too many.

double flip-half loop-double sal - not a sequence - that half-loop in the middle makes it a combination now, not a sequence.  The skater would have to put a step or turn in between the jumps to make it a sequence.
Thank you ! No TS here, so its important I understand the new rules.

[techskater]

so is a jump half loop jump a seq? so a double flip half loop  double sal  a seq so its ok to have three jumps?

Short answer: If you are only allowed 2 jumps in combinations, NO

[techskater]

I think (check me on this) if the level only allows two jumps in a combination and the skater does three, they get no points for the third jump under IJS scoring rules.  Is there a penalty under 6.0 or IJS

I believe they would get NO credit for that jump box at all as that becomes an invalid element, but, as always, don't take someone's word for it, but read how the rule gets worded or is worded post-GC.