Skater relationship with a coach

[AgnesNitt]

Leaving a coach: Part Duh

When I was first learning to skate, I had a coach who took phone calls on the ice and talked to her other students. I liked this coach, she was good for me, but she didn't really want to be teaching me. I was a meal ticket, and it showed. Five to ten minutes of every lesson was spent on doing other stuff.

I was timid. Shocker. But I was in a new environment, and I didn't say anything. And I hadn't learned the lesson of signing up for a number of lessons, before signing on with a coach. In a way I could see her point. I was a slow beginner, not making fast progress. She probably could take a phone call in the time it would take me to make two back crossovers.

But I *hated* it.

Now, I would address it tactfully (or not). If there's no improvement, I'd get up my courage to say. "I don't think my skill levels are good enough for you, I'd like to discontinue our professional relationship."

And in the previous paragraph the "(or not)"? Now I'm old enough and cranky enough to eyeball the coach and say, "You giving me extra time on the lesson for that phone call?" But the matter's never come up again.

[Teresa]

I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)

[Hanca]

I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)

So do I. If the student is happy with the coach, they would never be persuaded to change.

[bollyskater]

A belated thanks to AgnesNitt and Isk8NYC for answering my question.

I do get the impression the coaches from the group lessons at my old rink are disappointed with my move, but after your replies, I won't worry about it any further. They are still very friendly when I see them, so that's the good news.

Re the poaching thing, I've heard other coaches (not mine) say how hurt and confused they feel when students go to another coach and they don't know the reason but they are expected to fill in the new coach on the skater's history. I guess even if there is no official obligation to avoid hurt feelings, one should try as much as is reasonable to do so.

[Isk8NYC]

I agree with the poster that said you can't take a student that doesn't want to go. (poaching)

My first experience (as a bystander) with a poaching accusation was a little different and eye-opening.  It's the reason why I'm so committed to doing things ethically as a coach.  (This story starts like a bar tale, lol.  No booze was involved.)

Back in the day before cell phones and email, a coach was in a car accident and injured, unable to work for weeks and weeks.  She taught at five different rinks each week and had students all over the place, literally.  She arranged for a substitute at some of the rinks, but missed one that was too far away for anyone to cover her lessons.  I'll guess that she didn't speak with each client personally.  I think she left some of the notifications to the grapevine, especially those at the faraway rink.  Her fault?  You betcha!  She lived alone and was on major painkillers, so I could see cutting her some slack.

The faraway skating rink/club needed a group instructor, so they brought in someone new to the area.  The group students liked her.  She started teaching privates to new students on Club freestyle and made a good impression on everyone.  She also gave out free coaching tips, complimented the parents, suggested training drills and off-ice programs.  (No one was a PSA member, but these are classic techniques of soliciting as the PSA defines them, as sk8dreams pointed out earlier.) 

Several of the injured coach's parents asked if she could give lessons to their skaters.  She said yes and never spoke to the injured coach.  Parents never spoke to the injured coach.  The injured coach never followed up with anyone to see what they were doing during her rehab.  Major communications breakdown on everyone's part.

The scene upon the injured coach's unannounced return was so dramatic that the Club and rink owner had to mediate in a back room.  I was just a bystander, but I personally thought they were all wrong.  One family was asked to leave the rink/club because of their behavior during the meeting and a Head Pro was appointed to deal with all private lesson situations and coaching changes to keep it above board.   (A paid position because no one would want to do that for free.  It added onto the club costs, btw.)

Poaching doesn't mean accepting new students from other coaches.  It means that the parents/students were solicited to switch coaches.  Sending an email or flyer to other coaches' skaters about a program that you're coaching can be considered solicitation. It doesn't have to be the coach, either, it could be a well-meaning parent, a skating director/head pro, or a fellow coach telling someone "Your skater should take a few privates/try this group program with Coach A, she's excellent."

Save the drama - be an adult when wanting to switch coaches.  One quick email or phone call won't hurt anyone.

[jjane45]

It doesn't have to be the coach, either, it could be a well-meaning parent, a skating director/head pro, or a fellow coach telling someone "Your skater should take a few privates/try this group program with Coach A, she's excellent."

"Group program with Coach A" here refers to a privately run program, not rink group lessons, right? I suppose skating director is in the position to recommend any group lesson to skaters, regardless who is teaching it?

[Isk8NYC]

If it's a rink-managed program, that's one thing.  If Coach A is holding a skating camp or clinic, that's a little trickier.  The announcement can be sent to everyone, however all coaches should be included as well.  Even better - tell the coaches first and ask them to forward it to their students. 

However, if the skating director's sending a message about taking private lessons with Coach A, that's dicey unless it's an elite coach or skater for a special event.  Even then, best to put the word out via the coaches.

[sk8lady]

I agree the certified letter has legal prededence behind it, but if I was in your shoes, I think I would have gone to the skating director.   

Actually, the succedaneum coach (i.e., my current coach) was the skating director both at the rink I regularly skate at and my former coach's rink, which was probably why she was able to get a response! 

[AgnesNitt]

succedaneum
Okay I had to look it up. Two years of latin, and I couldn't figure it out.
I'm impressed that you stumped me.

[Isk8NYC]

At first glance, I thought it was a play on latin words, like Harry Potter, for Day that Sucks, lol.  Then I read the sentence and figured it out based on the context. 

[Query]

Are anti-poaching rules purely a PSA thing, that only applies to the U.S. and Canada?

I guess there is a fairness issue. If some coaches obey such rules and some don't, the ones that obey them are at a competitive disadvantage.

---

What if a coach teaches someone you know poorly, and they (or their parents) don't know enough to recognize the problem?

If a plumber messes up your neighbor's home, I hope you feel free to recommend your plumber. But PSA says

No member shall in any case solicit pupils of another member, directly or indirectly, or through third parties.

[Isk8NYC]

Are anti-poaching rules purely a PSA thing, that only applies to the U.S. and Canada?

I guess there is a fairness issue. If some coaches obey such rules and some don't, the ones that obey them are at a competitive disadvantage.

---

What if a coach teaches someone you know poorly, and they (or their parents) don't know enough to recognize the problem?

If a plumber messes up your neighbor's home, I hope you feel free to recommend your plumber. But PSA says
<snip>

That's the most asinine thing I've ever read.  Try this one on for size: you're developing a system for a client.  The client has lunch with a buddy who tells him: "Query's an ass.  He's doing this all wrong.  You should dump him and go with SuperStar, who'll do a much better job." The client didn't think anything was wrong, but the buddy was pretty emphatic.  He should then just walk away from your development without telling you and hire SuperStar?  You, working remotely, will continue building the system and head into the office the following week, only to find SuperStar sitting at your desk working on the project you thought was yours to complete.  Oh, and the new modules you just coded can't be reused anywhere else. 

Bad-mouthing others behind their back is wrong.  Most people learn it in kindergarten.
Offering an opinion when one isn't requested is also wrong.  Some people never learn to mind their own business.

Poaching and solicitation just create drama and stress. 

[Teresa]

If a student leaves a coach it's something outside the "poacher". It's some other issue between the skater and coach. A student does not leave a coach if all is good. Saying that, ending a relationship is always hard and hurtful for both coach and student. The coach, student, fellow skaters and skating parents need to handle the situation with kindness and respect. To be honest it should involve ONLY the skater and coach. I also feel that the coach and student need the opportunity to work on things before throwing in the towel. No surprises.

[jjane45]

I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?

[drskater]

I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?

I understand your ovewhelming temptation to help [the parent? the child?] but I beg you--hold your tongue.   The parent has eyes, and presumably a brain and can figure out on her own IF something is wrong. If you don't know the full story, you more than likely to step in a pile of doo doo.

For some people, backward crossovers take a looooonnnnngggg time to learn.  Maybe this kid never practices them. If she's actually in FS3, then she somehow managed the required "Beta" crossovers at some point, the only time crossovers are on an ISI test, a beginner test.

Believe me I know how you feel. When I skated in a different part of the country,I remember a "Glamour" coach who taught all her students to flutz their lutzes. I wasn't the only one to see it. The parents of these skates seemed clueless. Of course, I never said a peep (plus who would believe me?!). I didn't need to--the flutzes generated their own problems for these skaters at the appropriate competitions and tests.

[fsk8r]

Isk8nyc - I don't quite see your story of the coach in the car accident as poaching. I'm sure on a certain level it is poaching and I really sympathise with that coach for losing her business because of a car accident.
But look at it from the parents and skaters point of view. You've said that they weren't informed that the coach was involved in an accident and unable to work. So the first they would have known about it was when they were stood up at the rink. I don't like being stood up by anyone, but I understand circumstances are beyond people's control and forgive the odd occasion. But from their point of view it sounds like they would have been stood up for several weeks. The parents would get worried about their childrens progress and possibly would be thinking that this coach isn't coming back. At this stage a new coach arrives and provides lessons. Of course they're going to make the switch.
I can understand the scenes getting ugly when the original coach returns, but disappearing and not providing an explanation to anyone, she's no right to walk in and expect everything to return to normal.

[Isk8NYC]

I agree that they all failed to communicate properly, but the solicitation of parents/students by the new coach was wrong and led to the accusations of poaching.  It was justified, imo. 

I know it was a long story (sorry) but there were a lot of pieces to put together to see the whole picture, which is always true in any conflict.  As you know, there are multiple sides to every story.  The parents and skaters felt abandoned.  The new coach saw a "marketing opportunity."  The injured coach saw the overtures as poaching.  The new coach should have minded her own business and either backed off, suggested the parents contact the injured coach or contacted the coach herself.  Arrangements could have been made amicably to keep the skaters on lesson and prevent an "in your face" conflict at the rink.  All the drama would have been avoided.

If a student leaves a coach it's something outside the "poacher". It's some other issue between the skater and coach. A student does not leave a coach if all is good. Saying that, ending a relationship is always hard and hurtful for both coach and student. The coach, student, fellow skaters and skating parents need to handle the situation with kindness and respect. To be honest it should involve ONLY the skater and coach. I also feel that the coach and student need the opportunity to work on things before throwing in the towel. No surprises.

ITA.  Which is why I ask anyone who approaches me about switching to first speak with their coach.  It could be a simple misunderstanding (like scheduling, focus or goals) and a compromise could salvage the relationship. 

My kids have had coaches that were unreliable, which is why I like the "six trial lessons" approach - it makes moving on very easy.  I switched my kids from a freestyle coach to someone I chose that had more ice dance experience because they were interested in dance.  I explained why to the freestyle coach and she was fine with the switch.  When they asked to do freeskating with the new coach, I mentioned it off-hand to the old coach so that she wouldn't feel slighted, even though they were no longer students.  I didn't want her to be caught off-guard. 

Unexpected shock is what triggers outbursts from people in all walks of life.  The volunteer who expected to work check in only to find herself assigned to be a runner.  The office worker who finds her best client's file given to someone else.  The consultant who is undermined by a co-worker.  It causes self-doubt and puts them on the defensive.  People don't like those kind of surprises and can usually deal with situations better if they have time to think before they speak.  That lets anyone dissolve a relationship with less stress and anger.

Hopefully, we'll be able to increase lessons to add a jumps lesson.  I'd start by talking to their current coach about it - who knows?  She might have another coach in mind or she might recommend the old coach, who really is (imo) one of the best freeskating coaches in the area.  Since we parted on very amicable terms, I'm sure that she'd agree if our schedules sync up.

I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?

Don't offer unless your advice is requested.  It's possible that the skater has learning difficulties.  I know of a few kids who take both groups and privates.  Certain things elude them and take hours and hours of practice just to manage the element.  It's not necessarily a mental issue - sometimes, it's a physical issue such as body control. 

[Sierra]

I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?

Sorry, but I just cannot wrap my mind around how there can be any excuse for not having backward crossovers. I'd stay out of it if I were you though.

How badly injured was the coach? My coach was in a car accident once and called literally everybody within a day, though if this coach had worse injures I can see how it'd be more difficult to notify people.

[Isk8NYC]

She was hospitalized with very bad injuries, couldn't walk/drive for several weeks, and had no regular support system of friends and family to care for her.  She knocked on the door of a downstairs neighbor, whom she had never met, to ask for help getting up the stairs to her apartment when she came home alone from the hospital by cab.  She lived hand-to-mouth money-wise, iirc, and it's possible she didn't even have her own phone.  I remember her using the rink phones to make a lot of calls for her skaters.

Remember that it was back in the day before cell phones and email.  Many people arranged ongoing lessons at Club sessions with just a handshake, often without even exchanging landline phone numbers.  It was what many call "contract ice" where you agree to pay for ice time as part of your membership, so skaters usually came on time for every session.  Coaches would come before and stay after to have discussions with parents and skaters.  If you were running late, the coach just took their next student hoping you'd show up in time for the last lesson slot of the night.  (Which no one really wanted because the ice was so chopped up from the ice dancers.)

If you had everyone's name in your little black book and you lost it, it would take many calls to third parties and/or  Information (assuming you knew what town they lived in) to get those numbers again.  Communication wasn't the injured coach's strong suit anyway.  She was a little disorganized, to be frank.  I could totally see her just being overwhelmed and depressed, unable to reach the families in the Faraway rink, and assuming someone else would relay the messages.  I could also understand why the parents and other coach didn't reach out to her.  You'd have to track her down and physically go there.

I'm not really faulting anyone in this setup, I think everyone could have done a better job of communicating and treating others as they would like to be treated.  However, the free tips, compliments, etc. were inappropriate towards someone else's skating students.  That's really what the core issue is in the story.

[kssk8fan]

I personally think there should be a middle ground. I once watched a skater in group lesson with her mother, she worked on FS3 elements but was not able to do back crossovers on a circle. And when asked the skater actually had a private coach for years, much to my surprise. Now am I in the position to hint something is not right?

I had the privilege of watching a high functioning autistic girl skate for a number of years at our old rink.  You would have never known in a million years she was autistic unless her mother mentioned it in conversation.  She had a very good private coach (maybe still does) the whole time.  However, this girl could never skate backwards.  The coach was extremely qualified and has taken students to Jr. and Sr. nationals.  Unfortunately, if you only watched the coach with this skater and didn't know about her other students, you might jump to the conclusion that she wasn't a good coach - I mean, 6 years of privates and the child can't skate backwards?  However, if you knew the girl had autism your perspective changed and you would look, as I did, at the skater coach relationship and skills being learned as incredible!

[Query]

ISk8NYC, if I had a record of doing jobs badly, I would expect and deserve word to get around. If I sell something to someone, the buyer has a right to expect my work to meet competent professional standards, unless I warned them at the outset I might be unable to meet such standards. That is my concept of Professionalism.

If your student was harmed by ill fit boots, I'd hope you would tell the student, and not feel constrained to do so in the presence of the fitter. Likewise if a sharpener sharpens badly. If a student not your own risks serious injury because of poor boot fit, poor sharpening, or improper technique, PSA standards could make it impossible for you to say anything.

You have agreed to follow the PSA standards, and therefore have an ethical and legal obligation to do so, and perhaps an ethical obligation to report coaches who don't. But that doesn't guarantee those standards are always ideal, or are always in the best interests of the skater.

[Sk8tmum]

I had the privilege of watching a high functioning autistic girl skate for a number of years at our old rink.  You would have never known in a million years she was autistic unless her mother mentioned it in conversation.  She had a very good private coach (maybe still does) the whole time.  However, this girl could never skate backwards.  The coach was extremely qualified and has taken students to Jr. and Sr. nationals.  Unfortunately, if you only watched the coach with this skater and didn't know about her other students, you might jump to the conclusion that she wasn't a good coach - I mean, 6 years of privates and the child can't skate backwards?  However, if you knew the girl had autism your perspective changed and you would look, as I did, at the skater coach relationship and skills being learned as incredible!

I work with those on the Autism spectrum ... so glad to hear of the coach.  There are many who are wonderful supports to students with physical and learning differences. For example, there is the hip problem that has prevented my tiniest from having proper backward crossovers after 6 years of private lessons - with coaches at the highest level of qualification who teach her for the joy of teaching skating - and who regularly take skaters to Nationals etc.  You wouldn't know it to look at her ... however, the problem is there. She can jump, by the way, and has very nice edges! We've been blessed with the fact that the coaches don't make any apologies for her or to anyone for teaching her, they simply want her to love skating, and she does ... and that says a great deal about the coaches. It also says something about the people who point at her or laugh at her or don't understand her struggles, or have even had the audacity to ask the coach why they are "wasting their time" on her. Sigh. Why can't people mind their own business?

[MimiG]

Query, I want to reply to a few of your comments—

The neighbor most likely does not have an open ended contract with their plumber. Once the job's done and paid for, the contract is over. It's not the same in figure skating. Unless a specific number of lessons is arranged for at the start (or some other specific arrangement different from the norm) the expectation is that you will continue to take lessons from that same coach until such time as they are notified otherwise.

Of course a skater or their parents can choose whichever coach they want, and leave them whenever they want for any other coach they want. As a courtesy, they should let the first coach know before they begin lessons with the new coach, it's the right thing to do as a polite and mature adult. But, the new coach must talk to the first coach before that lesson both to make sure the first coach knows about the change and that all fees have been paid.

Similarly, if an ill-fitting boot has been already paid for, there are no further obligations to the fitter. But it would be pretty unprofessional of a competing fitter to walk around that pro-shop telling the clients to go elsewhere for a better fit or cheaper boots.

And if a coach has concerns about another coach's skater, they can (and should) bring it up with that coach and/or the skating director.

The PSA standards are designed to create a good working environment and ensure a certain level of professionalism among their members.

[Sierra]

Obviously there are cases like autism and hip problems. But shouldn't there be other things they can't do? That's what I don't really understand- how there can be only one thing a skater cannot do. The hip problem should be causing problems with some other elements that use the same muscles as backward crossovers, no? How high level are these skaters?

[Isk8NYC]

jjane only mentioned back crossovers and three or four people gave valid reasons for a struggle.  It doesn't matter how else a weakness or disability manifests.  The situation would be the same if the skater had one or one hundred issues.

The question jjane asked was "Do you say anything to the parent?"
The answer was a resounding "No, MYOB."

To answer your question Sierra, of course a skater with difficulties will struggle with more than one element. 
The knowledgeable people who answered appropriately (without condemning the coach) explained why the element in question (backward crossovers) might be so obviously unskilled in this situation. 

sk8mum, kssk8fan, drskater: thank you all for responding with such compassion and knowledge.  I only thought of a young boy I had taught last year who had motor function issues.  Swizzles were difficult and painful for him. 

Having taught Autism-spectrum skaters in the past, I agree that they do struggle with some skills more than others, backwards movement being a major issue.  I had one delightful little girl, for whom skating lessons were a reward for good behavior in school and therapy.  The mom warned me on the phone that I would probably have to hold the girl up for the lessons.  HAH!  She got on the ice like a pro, slipping, stroking and sliding with no fear.  She could do one-foot glides by the end of her first lesson/time on the ice.  Backward wiggles were enough to make her agitated, though.  They were difficult, scary and frustrating to her.  I used to time that part of the lesson/practice.