test track

[Sierra]

For a while I thought I understood it, but test track now confuses me even more. :giveup:

Same with me.

Hmmm, it really sounds like USFS's attempt to compete with ISI competitions, maybe that's the point? Get as many possible entrants for a competition? To be more democratic and inclusive? To try to actually make some $$$ at non-qualifying competitions?

USFS has the national champions. And now they want ISI's skaters too? haha.
I'm actually really psyched for an upcoming ISI comp I'm doing because nobody can do anything higher level than a camel sit. But for some reason, USFS is just never going to restrict spins. Above a certain level, it's just anything goes.

Not exactly. You competed No Test right? You could easily make that program Prelim Test, add a full length step sequence and one more spin and its Pre-Juv test. When your axel is competition ready you can go for Juv and once you get some doubles ready you can try intermidiate.

Why bother? In the future, Preliminary ST would be better for me than Int TT because in Int I could only do dbl. toe or sal, and frankly I'm pretty sure my double loop is going to be landed first & will be better than my sal. I can do a dbl loop in Prelim ST, which plays upon my strengths, not many people in Prelim have double loops. Not to mention the third spin- I don't think I have three good spins.

[fsk8r]

I don't get what the point of test and standard track is. surely those who are able to do the higher level elements should test up so they can get to the qualifying levels quicker? Those that can't will stay at the lower levels. If you make every level requirements those of the equivalent test with perhaps one or two stretch elements, then those who are landing the harder stuff will either not be able to use it, or will have to test up to be able to make best use of their skills. Natural selection will eventually mean that the top people succeed at the qualifying competitions.

[blue111moon]

History lesson:  Test Track evolved from the "Restricted" category that a lot of clubs used in non-qualifying competitions when the gap between what a skater needed to pass the thest and what was need to compete grew so wide that less-competitive skaters were dropping out all together.  "Restricted" events to limited to just the elements required to pass the test, so there was aplace for skaters who just wanted to test could compete against others of similar mind.  A lot of skaters and coaches used the Restricted events to guage whether or a not a skater was ready to test or stood a chance of passing the test above the level they were on. 

Program Development picked up on that idea and came up with Competitive Test Track.  The levels don't exactly line up with the tests but it does give the average skaters another option. That gives competitions more entrants, which brings them more income, which helps continue the sport's development. 

Not every skater is (or wants to be) a national competitor.  Test track appeals to a different mentality than the competitive tracks.  It's not better or worse, it's just different. 

[PinkLaces]

As bluemoon said, this is only the 2nd year of test track competitions.  USFS is concerned that a lot kids are dropping out of figure skating, because they aren't competitive.  They are also pushing introductory memberships and collegiate memberships.  They want to keep the membership up.

Test track is very well excepted here.  Lots of kids compete at it, but I live in a cold weather state where just about everyone learns to skate.  You don't have to like or skate it.  It might not be right for you or your child. Don't bash it.  It gives kids that want to do other things in addition to skate an opportunity to compete on a more even playing field. It makes more money for clubs that hold competitions.  It makes clubs that test more money, because kids take those FS tests instead of holding off on them.  It makes USFS more money, because more kids stick with it longer (i.e. more memberships and test fees and pin sales).

I'm not sure why being inclusive is threatening to some people.  If you are a star, you will still shine.  You will just have more people to admire you.

[jumpingbeansmom]

As bluemoon said, this is only the 2nd year of test track competitions.  USFS is concerned that a lot kids are dropping out of figure skating, because they aren't competitive.  They are also pushing introductory memberships and collegiate memberships.  They want to keep the membership up.

Test track is very well excepted here.  Lots of kids compete at it, but I live in a cold weather state where just about everyone learns to skate.  You don't have to like or skate it.  It might not be right for you or your child. Don't bash it.  It gives kids that want to do other things in addition to skate an opportunity to compete on a more even playing field. It makes more money for clubs that hold competitions.  It makes clubs that test more money, because kids take those FS tests instead of holding off on them.  It makes USFS more money, because more kids stick with it longer (i.e. more memberships and test fees and pin sales).

I'm not sure why being inclusive is threatening to some people.  If you are a star, you will still shine.  You will just have more people to admire you.

It has been relatively popular here...I know, when both my girls were skating, my older girl just wasn't big on jumping and such, and so she was not as competitive...so we entered her in TT events so she could go to the same open competitions as her sister.   I know a few families who do something similar. 

[drskater]

I'm actually really psyched for an upcoming ISI comp I'm doing because nobody can do anything higher level than a camel sit.

Sierra,

I know this may seem rude to ask, but given your Mom's reaction to your last competition, why are you doing ISI Freestyle 5? This level requires an axel. Your competitors should have this jump and you've noted numerous times that it is a problem for you. Since it seems like a great opportunity to "prove" to your Mother that you are competitive, why not do Freestyle 4 instead?

[sk8lady]

Same with me.
I'm pretty sure my double loop is going to be landed first & will be better than my sal. I can do a dbl loop in Prelim ST, which plays upon my strengths, not many people in Prelim have double loops. Not to mention the third spin- I don't think I have three good spins.

And why on earth are you working on doubles if you don't have three good spins?? Even to pass Preliminary free you need three solid spins, upright scratch, sit, and backspin. Could your spins be why you're not placing higher at competition?

[twokidsskatemom]

Sierra,

I know this may seem rude to ask, but given your Mom's reaction to your last competition, why are you doing ISI Freestyle 5? This level requires an axel. Your competitors should have this jump and you've noted numerous times that it is a problem for you. Since it seems like a great opportunity to "prove" to your Mother that you are competitive, why not do Freestyle 4 instead?

She shouldnt compete in 5, since to do that you have to pass 5.To pass 5 you need a axle.Did  your coach pass you in 5 already?

[Sierra]

Sierra,

I know this may seem rude to ask, but given your Mom's reaction to your last competition, why are you doing ISI Freestyle 5? This level requires an axel. Your competitors should have this jump and you've noted numerous times that it is a problem for you. Since it seems like a great opportunity to "prove" to your Mother that you are competitive, why not do Freestyle 4 instead?

I'm doing Open Silver, which is 4-5. My coach put me in it so I could do a lutz. Sorry for the confusion.

And why on earth are you working on doubles if you don't have three good spins?? Even to pass Preliminary free you need three solid spins, upright scratch, sit, and backspin. Could your spins be why you're not placing higher at competition?

I have solid scratch (? revs), back scratch(10+ revs), and sit(7 revs). I meant three solid nice competition spins, such as sit change sit, layback into haircutter, camel catch.

[Sk8tmum]

^^^ Wow - your test structure must differ widely from the Canadian one ... those 3 spins are on the lowest level test we have - and that test level doesn't even require an axel, just a waltz jump ! 

I'd also suggest that you might want to consider slightly less - ambitious - spins and master the camel, the camel/sit, a flying spin absolutely, before venturing off into things like laybacks and haircutters ... I'm baffled, like the other posters, on why you are focussing on doing double jumps when you haven't got all of the basic spin positions - under the points system, spins can and do often count for more than jumps ... which is why mastering them is critical to succeeding.

[blue111moon]

Just a general observation:  one of the most common complaints I hear from judges at non-qualifications is (and this is a direct quote from a National Level judge):  "I don't care how many times they jump,  I want to see them SKATE!"

Obviously this is an exaggeration:  the judges do care about jumps and spins but in groups where just about everyone is doing the same jumps and the same spins, then it generally comes down to who can actually skate between those elements - using edges and flow and soft knees.

God knows I'm never going to beat anyone in my age group with my jumps or spins (the spins are getting better, though   ) but I've found over the last few years that it's my Skating Skills that keep me from finishing last all the time.  And for the Skating Skills I thank all the years I spent doing figures, however badly I did them.  As one judge told me once after a particularly poor Adult Dance session "At least you HAVE edges!  Too many people out there only THINK they do!"

[Sierra]

I'd also suggest that you might want to consider slightly less - ambitious - spins and master the camel, the camel/sit, a flying spin absolutely, before venturing off into things like laybacks and haircutters ... I'm baffled, like the other posters, on why you are focussing on doing double jumps when you haven't got all of the basic spin positions - under the points system, spins can and do often count for more than jumps ... which is why mastering them is critical to succeeding.

I see no reason to not work on ANY new jumps just because my spins improve slower. I have a backspin. That's all that is required for doubles. The spins are catching up, because I'm not breezing through the doubles like I did with singles. I probably won't have doubles in competition for quite a while.
Flying spin before layback? Layback is easier than a flying spin, and most skaters start on layback sometime after beginning camel. And it's not like I'm teaching myself these spins- my coach is having me work on them. She focuses more on the spins in my program, like the camel, but we still do work on other spins.

[sdlevitt]

We are trying Prelim test track for the first time in the Florida open. From what I understand the TT scoring uses the 6.0 system?  I think this will be a big help, as the other judging system is all over the place.  In the last competition a girl had one judge place her 1st and one 8th!   
My DD is 12, passed ppm and ppf and is starting to work on pm.  She is just starting to get her Axel.  The pre-preliminary Free skate at the Florida open did not break down into A/B like our local competitions do (without and with Axel), so I felt she would be the only girl without an Axel.   her program from pre-preliminary A (single jumps and combos that included lutz/flip) fit into prelim Test track best.   She spins better than she jumps, so it makes sense.

The question is, do we then continue in the Test Track route, or go back to traditional. I think the next local competition doesnt offer TT.  Also, we might have an Axel by then.

[Clarice]

You can move back and forth between Well Balanced and Test Track events from one competition to another.  You just can't enter both at the SAME competition.  You're not locked in to one or the other for an entire season.

6.0 judging isn't going to eliminate variations in scoring, though.  I've seen plenty of competitions where the same skater was placed near the top and near the bottom in the same event by different judges.  There is some subjectivity in judging, and different judges value different things.  If all the skaters in the group are technically pretty even, the judges have to go with other things in order to place them - one might reward speed, another high spiral positions, another musicality.  That can result in very mixed ordinals.

[jumpingbeansmom]

We are trying Prelim test track for the first time in the Florida open. From what I understand the TT scoring uses the 6.0 system?  I think this will be a big help, as the other judging system is all over the place.  In the last competition a girl had one judge place her 1st and one 8th!   
My DD is 12, passed ppm and ppf and is starting to work on pm.  She is just starting to get her Axel.  The pre-preliminary Free skate at the Florida open did not break down into A/B like our local competitions do (without and with Axel), so I felt she would be the only girl without an Axel.   her program from pre-preliminary A (single jumps and combos that included lutz/flip) fit into prelim Test track best.   She spins better than she jumps, so it makes sense.

The question is, do we then continue in the Test Track route, or go back to traditional. I think the next local competition doesnt offer TT.  Also, we might have an Axel by then.

6.0 is that scoring system-- the skaters are merely ranked and yes sometimes it is all over the place.    I have even seen some weird stuff in IJS-- like one of dd's friends got +1 from 3 judges GOE on one element that another judge gave her -2-- SAME element.   I have had my own dd take a MITF test where one judge upgraded her on one move and another actually criticized it..   You can go back and forth between test track and well balanced if needed.

[sarahspins]

You're not locked in to one or the other for an entire season.

No, but if you've opted to go test track and have tested up, you probably won't be competitive in standard track... that's the downside, I think.

[Clarice]

No, but if you've opted to go test track and have tested up, you probably won't be competitive in standard track... that's the downside, I think.

Yes, but it's good to know you can move back and forth in case a competition doesn't offer Test Track events, a situation the original poster mentioned.

[techskater]

6.0 is that scoring system-- the skaters are merely ranked and yes sometimes it is all over the place.    I have even seen some weird stuff in IJS-- like one of dd's friends got +1 from 3 judges GOE on one element that another judge gave her -2-- SAME element.   I have had my own dd take a MITF test where one judge upgraded her on one move and another actually criticized it..   You can go back and forth between test track and well balanced if needed.

I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit.  When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed.  When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better.  Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.

[FigureSpins]

I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit.  When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed.  When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better.  Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.

I love this analogy, thanks so much for sharing it with us. 

I really think skating speed is critical, as long as it's done properly, so let's make that the apple.

What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?

[jjane45]

I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit.  When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed.  When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better.  Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.

I love this analogy, thanks so much for sharing it with us.  

I really think skating speed is critical, as long as it's done properly, so let's make that the apple.

What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?

Usually skaters have little bit of everything to varying degrees. So skating competition = well-balanced large fruit platter competition? lol judges assign different weights to each skill and then add them up?

Say skater X = 3 apples + 2 pears + 5 oranges + 1 lemon
Judge A: apple = 1, pear = 4, orange = 2, lemon = 0 -> score = 21
Judge B: apple = 3, pear = 2, orange = 1, lemon = -1 -> score = 17

Sounds like weighted PCS score... (runs away and hides)

[FigureSpins]

Usually skaters have little bit of everything to varying degrees. So skating competition = well-balanced large fruit platter competition? lol judges assign different weights to each skill and then add them up?
<snip>
Sounds like weighted PCS score... (runs away and hides)

Yeah, I understood the analogy. 

As I suggested, let's let the Apple be "skating speed."

What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?7

[fsk8r]

Yeah, I understood the analogy. 

As I suggested, let's let the Apple be "skating speed."

What ELSE should the basket o' skating fun include for a full fruit salad?7

there seems to be some sort of emphasis on carriage/posture and the whole stretching the free leg type of thing.
I'd also add flow. There's no point in skating fast if you've got to slow down to do the waltz jump in your program.

[FigureSpins]

Okay, so far we have:

. Speed with continuous flow
. Carriage/Posture with Extension
. Jumps which have clean entries/landing and are fully rotated
. Spins that are strong and fast with the correct number of revolutions
. Field Moves that connect everything together seamlessly
. Artistry
. Choreography
. Music interpretation

What else is part of the fruit basket?

[Ellyn]

Well, obviously, the elements.

Do you want to say "Jumps" are one kind of fruit, "Spins" are another, "Steps" another, and also maybe "Field Moves" to incorporate all kinds of spirals, spread eagles, etc.? Then some of those kinds of fruit have different varieties within them.


And choreography and interpretation of the music -- those are separate scores in IJS, but they could probably be considered together in 6.0.

[FigureSpins]

Okay - added!