Graf screws and outsoles

[Query]

Here is a page from the Graf figure skate catalog, which shows their high level screws and outsoles.

Am I correct that the screws look somewhat like the blunt ended Edea HiLo screws that others have talked about here?

The outsoles are SRPP (Self-Reinforced PolyPropylene?). Perhaps they are thinner than most outsoles, so the same logic about HiLo screws applies as for Edeas.

BTW, I once saw a pair of Graf figure skate blades. I was puzzled that they did not use countersunk holes, which perhaps meant they could not be as solidly positioned. But that may be out of date. I think - this may be wrong - they also didn't have slotted holes for temporary mounts - it looks that way in the catalog.

I am also puzzled the rear screws aren't longer, especially since I had a Graf heel (made of multiple leather layers glued together, in one of their high end freestyle boots) separate when I didn't use a long enough screw there. But perhaps that was a lemon, or they have been improved.

[Query]

Oh wait.

The Graf heel I had separate (an older model Graf Edmonton Special, that used leather outsoles: maybe I was supposed to use HiLo screws there too. I didn't use the Graf screws because I preferred my blades, which have countersunk holes. I didn't know enough to notice if the threads were different.

Maybe that partly explains the heel separation, If even the leather soles (and heels) were designed for HiLo screws.

I've contacted a U.S. distributer for Graf figure skates to see what type of screws they suggest to use.

[Kaitsu]

Here is picture of the screws which come with Graf prestige crystal boots where sole is covered with carbon layer. Strange is that they deliver only 4 pc of pan head screws and also amount of cone headed screws seems to indicate that they are meant just for the soles, not for heels. I am not sure if they have thought that screws which comes together with blades are used for heels which are made from leather. Heels does not have carbon layer. I am not sure if this is some cost down activity to include so less amount of screws or why there was no more screws in the bag. I was using Edea´s screws in heel as they are almost identical with Graf screws (as you can see from the attached picture).

Head in conical screws is quite big one and they will not fit so well to Wilson blades counterbore.

PS. Note that screws are not self tapping like the instruction says

[Query]

Since you have an engineering background, does the rough surface between the threads serve a purpose (e.g., does it increase friction), or is that a production artifact? Or is it your belief that is mostly due to corrosion? Except that the pictures of new screws in the catalog have a similar surface texture.

When I look at most metal screws, they seem mirror-smooth.

BTW I previously contacted various people about these boots and screws, along the lines of.

I have an old pair of hardly used Graf Edmonton Specials. It was made with leather soles and heels, but like modern boots, were marked \"Made in Switzerland\". I had one heel separate, after very little low end use. I thought that was because I hadn't used long enough screws, that didn't reach to the outsole in the back. But maybe it was (also) because I used the wrong thread type screw. I wanted countersink screws to fit the countersunk holes of my Ultima Matrix I blades. The catalog shows modern Graf Edmonton Specials, with the synthetic heels, with relatively short heel screws. They say to use Graf figure screws, which appear to be non-countersunk HiLo (double helix thread) blunt end screws. I've glued the heels back together, and want to figure out what type of screw to use to mount blades that have countersunk holes. Whatever they might have came with, I switched to normal (single helix thread) countersink screws, because I used them with Ultima Matrix I skates, that had countersunk holes. Should the older Edmonton Specials, with leather soles and heels, also use modern Graf figure screws? Or perhaps it would be better to use longer length HiLo blunt end screws, so they penetrates into the outsoles to better hold the heels together? Do you have any recommendations? And do you sell the type of screw you recommend?

Matej Silecky (from GrafSkates.ch) wrote

Thank you for your email and for your explanation.

Given that the boots are older, do you remember where and when you got the boots? This will help me better understand the boots and their status.

As far as the screws, there is a difference between the current boots and older Edmonton Specials, so please know that your screws will be different than the recommended ones today.

The recommendation would be to use the screws that come with your particular blade as every blade has a different setup or sunken or non-sunken holes on the mounting plate.

Let me know about the where and when you purchased and received the boots, and I will assist more if I can. If you have a photo of the heel, that will help.

Matej Silecky - USA Country Manager

>John Harmatta Geppetto's Skate Shop wrote

1.  We do not sell Graf boots and have none of the special screws for them.

2.  If the heel of the boot is separating from the sole I would not use them even if they were glued back together again. It is only a matter of time before they come apart again. Perhaps there was a defect when manufacturing them or they just rotted away from old age no matter how used they may be. Again, I would not use them.

3.  We seal all boots with leather soles and heels before mounting with an industrial-grade polyurethane. This keeps the water out, preventing damage to the soles and heels. It sounds to me like the boots were never sealed which allowed water damage to take its course over time.

4.  We use standard screws in leather soles and heels. The length for the heels is either 3/4" or 1". Both flat head and pan head are used. In the soles, we use 1/2".

Lizeth Navia, Office Manager, Fairfax Ice Arena Pro Shop, offered to give me a few.

For the present, I haven't done anything more with these boots. Harmata's comments make me a bit skitish about using the boots again. It's not like they are ideal for me in any event.

However, I did meet someone once who had similar Graf boots with the same separating heel problem. He drilled the holes all the way through, and bolted the heels together, using, if I recall correctly, washers to help hold things together, and was happy with that solution.

[supersharp]

Here is picture of the screws which come with Graf prestige crystal boots where sole is covered with carbon layer. Strange is that they deliver only 4 pc of pan head screws and also amount of cone headed screws seems to indicate that they are meant just for the soles, not for heels. I am not sure if they have thought that screws which comes together with blades are used for heels which are made from leather. Heels does not have carbon layer. I am not sure if this is some cost down activity to include so less amount of screws or why there was no more screws in the bag. I was using Edea´s screws in heel as they are almost identical with Graf screws (as you can see from the attached picture).

Head in conical screws is quite big one and they will not fit so well to Wilson blades counterbore.

PS. Note that screws are not self tapping like the instruction says

Did I miss something, or is there a viable reason they call it "Rapid Mounting System"?  It seems like it is exactly the same as every other mounting system--find center, drill holes...

[Query]

I tried to find links about the Graf "Rapid mounting system" (RMS) to understand what you are talking about.

RMS is a Graf trademark. AFAIK, trademarks do not have to be technically correct descriptions. E.g., "Ford Mustang" doesn't refer to a horse. Also, "rapid" is not specific.

https://www.icewarehouse.com/Graf_Rapid_Mounting_Holder_Hardware/descpage-GRMSK.html
describes a bolt & nut system that allows you to avoid using rivets, or removing rivets when mounting and changing hockey blades.

See also
  https://www.graffigure.com/en/inside-graf/grafskates-technologie/anatomy-of-the-graf-skate/

In the above links, I think RMS refers to the mounting system in certain hockey skates, but I could be wrong. Have you seen it used in connection with a figure skate mounting system?

[tstop4me]

In the above links, I think RMS refers to the mounting system in certain hockey skates, but I could be wrong. Have you seen it used in connection with a figure skate mounting system?

Look at the photo of the bag of screws that Kaitsu posted in Reply #2.

[tstop4me]

Did I miss something, or is there a viable reason they call it "Rapid Mounting System"?  It seems like it is exactly the same as every other mounting system--find center, drill holes...

Some marketing exec at Graf probably got a good X-MAS bonus for cooking that up.

[Kaitsu]

I was also wondering why regular screws are called rapid mounting system, but my alarm bells were not ringing in that time. They didn't even ring when I was wondering the amount of screws. Today (a bit late) I started to count these two things together. Query might be right and I have possibly mislead lead you. It is true that screws and bag what you can see on photos were delivered together with Graf boots, but whom has put that bag inside the box, that I do not know. Skates were purchase from another country when this family was on summer trip. There is possibility that skate shop is selling also Graf hockey skates and they have simply put their own screws to empty RMS bag and put that together with boots so that customers are not calling back by asking which screws they should use in carbon layer soles. This would explain these two earlier mentioned things.

I have sent mail to Graf headquarter, but there is summer holiday season ongoing in Southern Europe. They will come back to work on next week, so I will let you know in next week what they replied.

[Query]

But I could easily be wrong too: the original Graf trademark applies to "ice skates; ice skates for figure skating; ice skate blades; roller skates; in-line skates; chassis for roller skates; and chassis for in-line skates".

BTW, the trademark expired in 2005, if this web page is correct:

https://trademark.trademarkia.com/rms-rapid-mounting-system-75238062.html

Perhaps their mounting system for removable runner hockey skates was more rapid than some other systems.

For example, in this video, using a blademaster rivet tool, the rivets go in pretty quickly, but there are a lot of them. Whereas in many of the modern removable runner blade systems, there is only one screw (or bolt), which, if you use a powered screwdriver, can go in reasonably quickly too.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIojL5siiT8

I still wonder why Graf doesn't make a point of making the surface of their screws, or at least the portion of the screw that the end customer sees, smooth and shiny when new. Even the screw heads Graf's own photos show, which are visible to the end customer after installation, have a rough surface. To many people, a rough surface looks badly made, or like it isn't new equipment.

Unless - is it significantly cheaper to mold (or otherwise manufacturer) screws and bolts with a rough surface?

[Kaitsu]

I believe Rapid mounting system refers to hockey skates where blade holders are mounted to boots with screws instead of rivets.

https://www.icewarehouse.com/Graf_Rapid_Mounting_Holder_Hardware/descpage-GRMSK.html
http://www.artistedupatin.com/en/HockeyBlades_GRAF.php

I think similar bolt / nut system was recommended also to your skates heels. You can probably find similar mounting system for figure skates if you google inline skates mounting systems. See example pictures where Edea is talking about traditional mounting method. https://edeaskates.com/en/roller/frame-assembly/

[supersharp]

Thanks for the additional info.  It's unfortunate that figure blades have inconsistent sole plate layout, or we could use the roller traditional mount and try different kinds of blades without having to put hole after hole in our boot soles.  This is part of how the blade manufacturers keep us using the same product--it's just one more way too make it seem that a different blade is going to be too hard to try.  If I could have tried several different blades earlier in my skating years, I am guessing I would have spent much less time on the Coronation Ace.  I always struggled to get over the center of that blade.  At the time, I assumed it was my lack of skill, but I can see now that there was more involved.  I'm much happier on the Skate Science blades, and I am comparing it when wearing the exact same boots. If you change blades and immediately feel like part of the struggle is gone, it is pretty clear that it is the blade geometry that made the difference.  I also found that the change to a smoother stainless blade instantly gave me more flow...and who doesn't want that?

More on topic, I think it's funny how each of these boot manufacturers tells you that you must use their proprietary screw, no matter how poorly they are constructed, whether they mesh correctly with your blade's mounting holes or not.  And why aren't the screws designed to fit all standard blades?  It's as if the boot manufacturers have no idea that skate blades have variations in the sole plates.  It would make more sense to me to have screw types be based on boot sole material and blade hole size, with non-corrosive options available.  The only solution to this that I have found is to just ignore the demand to use the proprietary screw and to use stainless screws that I have sourced elsewhere.

[FigureSpins]

I think the baggie that says "Rapid Mounting System" was repurposed.  The dozen brass-colored screws that came with my Grafs were in a clear plastic baggie with the two retaining straps.  The instructions show that you have to drill the holes first and yes, it does call them "self tapping screws."    To me, that would mean they would have pointed tips, but these are blunted. 

It makes sense, though: if you were to install the screw through the inside soleplate, it wouldn't hurt the skater's foot.  I've had two skating students with little feet complain that their foot hurt on the bottom.  Under the insole, the sharp screw tips were sticking up.  They were low-end, name-brand skate sets where the blades were attached at the factory. 

There are other typos in the document that are cracking me up now because I never actually read it when I bought the skates.  First of all, the second page is titled "ice balde assembly."  Spell-check could have been their friend.  On the third page, it shows how to lace correctly.  The hooks and lower eyelets use "soft lacing," but the center uses "thight lacing."  Again, spell-check would have helped, but it was probably edited on a computer that didn't have an English dictionary.  A grammar check would help, too: the back  page reads: "Frequently check the frequently fixing screws and its capture of the ice blade."  At least they didn't add an apostrophe to "its."

[FigureSpins]

As an aside, when I picked up the skates, I asked about the package of screws.  The fitter showed me that he buys screws in bulk and keeps them at his workbench in an organizer with drawers.  Different color (stainless steel) but same blunt tips.  More convenient, he said, than the baggies of screws since he can dip the magnetic screw gun bit into the bin to pick one up.  He left the baggie in the skate box in case I need to replace a screw at some point.

[supersharp]

I think the baggie that says "Rapid Mounting System" was repurposed.  The dozen brass-colored screws that came with my Grafs were in a clear plastic baggie with the two retaining straps.  The instructions show that you have to drill the holes first and yes, it does call them "self tapping screws."    To me, that would mean they would have pointed tips, but these are blunted. 

It makes sense, though: if you were to install the screw through the inside soleplate, it wouldn't hurt the skater's foot.  I've had two skating students with little feet complain that their foot hurt on the bottom.  Under the insole, the sharp screw tips were sticking up.  They were low-end, name-brand skate sets where the blades were attached at the factory. 

There are other typos in the document that are cracking me up now because I never actually read it when I bought the skates.  First of all, the second page is titled "ice balde assembly."  Spell-check could have been their friend.  On the third page, it shows how to lace correctly.  The hooks and lower eyelets use "soft lacing," but the center uses "thight lacing."  Again, spell-check would have helped, but it was probably edited on a computer that didn't have an English dictionary.  A grammar check would help, too: the back  page reads: "Frequently check the frequently fixing screws and its capture of the ice blade."  At least they didn't add an apostrophe to "its."

I love reading the instructions, always entertaining.  And the bag being repurposed explains a lot. 

If we could get rid of all the incorrect apostrophe use in English (being used for plural instead of possessive), the world would be a better place!

[Kaitsu]

It seems that the question if Graf delivers screws together with boots and what kind of screws they recommend to be used was too difficult question to Graf skates. Their reply was following...
Please let us know where you are writing from (city , country) to be able to direct you to the right person to get in touch with you.

I replied them that I am not interested about their retailers opinion. I would like to get factory confirmation / recommendations. Since that they have not replied anymore. Its amazing how difficult it is to get answer to even most simplest technical things from the manufacturers. I would assume that they at least know if screws are delivered with boots or not, but I guess not. Or maybe this requires signing of Non-Disclosure Agreement before they can tell if there should be screws in the box or not.

[supersharp]

Sheer insanity that it isn't clear to Graf whether or not they supply the screws. 

The plastic-soled Jackson boots are supposed to come with the screws that they want you to use.  Their main feature is that the threads are coarser, which probably helps keep them from stripping out of the nylon soles as easily (but they still seem to).  However, it is common to find two packs of screws in some boxes of boots and none in others.  I'm experimenting with the hi-lo thread screws this year, so far they seem to be less prone to stripping...but I haven't mounted enough boots to be sure yet.

[Query]

Please help me understand. Are you saying the Graf factor, or a Graf distributor, may have repurposed a bag when they sent you new boots, and didn't mention they were doing that??

That would be completely irresponsible. Because you, as a skate tech, might reasonably be assumed by them to buy replacement screws in the future based on the bag.

I understand that you think other screws are better, so maybe you don't care in this case. But it's very important that manufacturers and distributors send you things that are labelled correctly. If you think it was the distributor that did this, I would think it appropriate to point it out to them, so they don't make that kind of mistake in the future.

I also feel that Graf should have tried to be more helpful.

[supersharp]

I think the baggie that says "Rapid Mounting System" was repurposed.  The dozen brass-colored screws that came with my Grafs were in a clear plastic baggie with the two retaining straps.  The instructions show that you have to drill the holes first and yes, it does call them "self tapping screws."    To me, that would mean they would have pointed tips, but these are blunted. 

FigureSpins already clarified that the baggie labeled Rapid Mounting System was repurposed. 

[Kaitsu]

Finally I got confirmation from Graf. We had actually very good conversation after some issues. So I need to take back my disappointed attitude.

Here is short summary of discussions...

As we know, in the past screws were not delivered by Graf, but they have changed their strategy few months ago. In future boots should include screw bag.

Hi-Lo screws what I did receive together with one pair of Graf boots were not delivered by factory. They must have been added by their retailer.

Graf has used RMS bags also for figure skates simply because they have plenty of them on stock. They promised to use clear bags in future so that RMS labels are not causing confusions for people like us.

In traditional leather soles you can use example Wilson screws (stainless recommended). This is the reason why they have not provided screws together with the boots. Obviously you need to ensure that used screws are not too long. In the front they recommend to use 11mm or 13mm long screws depending on the blade model and boot size. Same for heel screws length. Normally 16-19mm long but for bigger boot sizes from 8 to 12 it is better to use 25mm long screws. Attached picture of the screws what factory will deliver in future together with leather soles. Screws are chromium steel.

For the Ultra Light outsoles Graf uses special flat point screw with 13mm length for the front part of the boot where the regular screws with sharp tip would be too long. Graf Ultra Light outsoles are not carbon material - it is a Polypropylene composition. This material is used example in bullet proof vests.

[Isk8NYC]

Great info, Kaitsu.  Thanks!

[supersharp]

Excellent, thanks!

[tstop4me]

Attached picture of the screws what factory will deliver in future together with leather soles. Screws are chromium steel.

<<Emphasis added.>>  Thanks.  Lots of good information.  Please clarify what you mean by "chromium steel".  Do you mean chrome-plated plain carbon steel, or some grade of stainless steel?

[Kaitsu]

Unfortunately Graf has not yet confirmed what they mean with chromium steel. This is is the therm they used, so I cannot confirm if it means stainless steel until they reply to me.