How skate blades are made

[Query]

*  The scrap will likely be contaminated with cutting oil (and other muck).  So the contaminants need to be removed.

*  For heat treating 440C stainless steel, the maximum temperature is about 1065 C; whereas the melting point is about 1483 C.  So the furnaces need to achieve higher temperatures to melt the scrap.

*  During heat treatment of metals, the metal stays in the solid state.  When you melt a metal, it becomes a liquid.  Special equipment and processes are needed to handle metal in the liquid (molten) state.

*  Just as heat treatment of solid metal requires specific controls of atmosphere and thermal profiles to achieve the desired properties, turning molten metal into a solid metal requires ***different*** specific controls of atmosphere and thermal profiles to achieve the desired composition.

OK - You are saying that you need a lot of extra equipment and careful controls to re-use the metal for this use. Equipment that you imply a heat treatment plant wouldn't have, but a steel factory would. And that they can't return it to the original factory for simple remelting, because of the contaminants, like cutting oil. With the info you just provided, that makes sense.

I wonder how expensive the blades are. They got an endorsement from Shoma Uno:

https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2022/01/a3cf9864b033-home-honed-blades-to-put-uno-a-cut-above-at-olympics.html

which mentions the blades are 271 grams - but it doesn't list what length blade that corresponds to. The article makes it sounds like they are still in prototype phase. I don't see in an obvious place to look what they cost, or will cost, though I admit I can't read Japanese.

I know that welding is sometimes an imperfect process, and adhesives sometimes bond imperfectly too. But does it make sense to those of you who are engineers to make both the runner and the frame/baseplate from a uniform composition (other than the materials absorbed during heat treatment), for optimal lightweight design? Different parts of the blade and frame get different types and amounts of of stress and strain, yes? So is it at least plausible that composite construction, like that employed by the lightest weight blades of their main competitors, might be better in some respects? It seems like Kazuka is only comparing their blades to non-composite blades, not to the lightest weight blades from HD Sports, Paramount and Ultima, because they mention welding.

Yes, other companies have used stainless steel. But Kozuka implies the non-stainless steel alloy they use is more flexible, and less prone to break, than what others have used. Could they be right? I.E., is it possible that giving steel the level of corrosion resistance of the level used in figure skating blades might make them less flexible or more prone to break?

[Kaitsu]

Another blade brand what I didnt know before...
http://www.stifeldblades.com/en/professional-blades/

I did send email to them asking prices for their blades.

[supersharp]

Another blade brand what I didnt know before...
http://www.stifeldblades.com/en/professional-blades/

I did send email to them asking prices for their blades.

I hope they respond.  Really interesting version of the Matrix blade concept.

The dance blade is crazy!  It looks like an old school figure blade (but shorter).  No NSZ at all...it would be very interesting to try spinning on this blade.  Easy to sharpen, though.

[Query]

Stifeld website: https://www.stdskates.it/en/

Online Stifeld prices are at
  https://www.stdskates.it/en/10_stifeld-blades

I guess the E with two lines for it means Euros.

They sell boots too, and a number of other skating products, e.g.,
  https://www.stifeldblades.com/en/boots/

That was just from a quick web search. I don't know anything about them, or about merchants who sell their products

[Kaitsu]

This is what they responded...
In this moment we are changing model , few quantity in stock until new design arrives.

Really interesting version of the Matrix blade concept.

I would say that they are more close to Paramount Skates concept than Matrix. Both are using roll pins for runner locking and 420 / 440 steel.

Thanx Query sharing the link.  If price is really 155€ / 165$ from the 420C stainless steel blades, that is very competitive. I just wonder why in each price in their web store does have Extra CE price. Its meaning is a mystery. I tried to register to their web pages and I did proceed in order process all the way to stage where shipping method is chosen. Last step after that would be payment. At least in the shipping phase price was still 155€ + shipping costs. I will try to findout meaning of  Extra CE and keep you updated.

https://www.stdskates.it/en/193-professional
https://www.steelgr.com/Steel-Grades/High-Alloy/420.html
https://www.steelgr.com/Steel-Grades/High-Alloy/440c.html

[tstop4me]

I would say that they are more close to Paramount Skates concept than Matrix. Both are using roll pins for runner locking and 420 / 440 steel.

Just a minor correction here.  The Matrix uses mechanical fasteners (screws) to attach the runner to the chassis.  Paramount uses no mechanical fasteners (no screws, no roll pins).  On their website, Paramount does not disclose how the runner is attached.  I first thought it might be a robust, though expensive, shrink fit or force fit.  But their patent discloses the use of a special adhesive.  I did a search on the adhesive, but couldn't find any information on it.

[tstop4me]

If price is really 155€ / 165$ from the 420C stainless steel blades, that is very competitive. I just wonder why in each price in their web store does have Extra CE price. Its meaning is a mystery. I tried to register to their web pages and I did proceed in order process all the way to stage where shipping method is chosen. Last step after that would be payment. At least in the shipping phase price was still 155€ + shipping costs. I will try to findout meaning of  Extra CE and keep you updated.

I wondered about that too.  I believe it's a translation issue and refers to "Extra EU" in English; that is, price for sales to countries outside the European Union.

[Kaitsu]

Just a minor correction here.  The Matrix uses mechanical fasteners (screws) to attach the runner to the chassis.  Paramount uses no mechanical fasteners (no screws, no roll pins).

Good note! Its so long time since I have sharpen last time Paramount blades that I did not remember anymore that all their blades does not have roll pins. If you scroll their web pages, you will see that some blades does roll pins and some not.

What comes to gluing the runners, I believed long time that Paramount Skates has invented genius way to produce blades. Plain grind runner and CNC-machined hollow where runner is fitted ensures 100% surely that blade (runner) cannot have banana shape. Unfortunately I was wrong with my wet dreams. Hollow is machined to be slightly wider than runner so that there is space also for the glue. This clearance makes possible that runner is not straight when glue has dried. I have not seen too many pairs of Paramount blades, but still I have been seen one pair of such a blades where runners were not 100% straight.

If we continue from the gluing and roll pins, JW Revolution blades are using also roll pins. In early stage roll pins were not filled with a glue. In latest generation revolutions pins are filled with the silver glue. I believe there is two reasons to fill pins with glue. Pins are not stainless and pins / blades start to rust over the times from the holes. Filling pin with glue may help a bit on this problem, but I think the real reason is anyhow that hollowed roll pins cannot withstand very well vertical forces (when pin is horizontal). I have seen pair of Gold Seal revolution blades which were suffering all the time issue where runner was loosened from the foot which is used for jumps. Roll pin which is above toe picks takes all hits and its became flat and banana shape after some time of skating. This was easy to recognize because blade started to keep terrible noise when runner starts to vibrate. If you have such a blades, make claim to dealer where they have been purchased. It should land under the lifetime warranty. Blades where roll pins has filled with glue seems to survive a bit better, but consider also scenario where pin can withstand jumps, but the composite frame not.

[tstop4me]

Good note! Its so long time since I have sharpen last time Paramount blades that I did not remember anymore that all their blades does not have roll pins. If you scroll their web pages, you will see that some blades does roll pins and some not.

You have a sharp eye.  I have the high-end 440C Paramount version comparable to the Gold Seal.  And I've only seen other high-end versions comparable to the Gold Seal or Pattern 99; these have no roll pins.  I never realized that some of their other models have roll pins.  I assume it must result in lower manufacturing costs somehow.

[Kaitsu]

I wondered about that too.  I believe it's a translation issue and refers to "Extra EU" in English; that is, price for sales to countries outside the European Union.

You was right. Seller has now confirmed this to me via email.

[Query]

I would say that they are more close to Paramount Skates concept than Matrix. Both are using roll pins for runner locking and 420 / 440 steel.

Actually different Matrix blades are made with different steels - e.g., some high end Matrix blades use AUS8 steel. Take a look at their catalog. They don't disclose the composition of some of their blades.

Are you saying Matrix blades don't use adhesive too? I thought at the very least they would put adhesive on the screws, so they don't come loose. It's a bit hard to tell - their video How to make Matrix blades doesn't show the entire manufacturing process.

BTW, in the above Matrix video, Ultima cools the blade with water (I think) before attaching it - is that to prevent warping due to thermal expansion and contraction, or is there another reason to do that? E.g., does it have to do with how hard the edge will be?

Kaitsu wrote:

What comes to gluing the runners, I believed long time that Paramount Skates has invented genius way to produce blades. Plain grind runner and CNC-machined hollow where runner is fitted ensures 100% surely that blade (runner) cannot have banana shape. Unfortunately I was wrong... I have not seen too many pairs of Paramount blades, but still I have been seen one pair of such a blades where runners were not 100% straight.

By banana shape, do you mean horizontally warped, twist-warped, or something else?

Were they new blades? There are several ways for blades to become warped in use - e.g., if they are struck by another blade (mostly, but not exclusively, a hockey thing), they are used to create a very hard stop (again, I THINK mostly a hockey thing, though under or over rotated jump landings create some torque too, and badly timed split jump landings sometimes break blades, so maybe they can warp them too), or if the blade was mounted in such a way as to apply a significant torque long term (I think that is more common than it "should" be).

I was thinking about the theory that laser and water cutting both create slightly asymmetric blades, because of the spread of the beam or stream as it passes through the runner. But in terms of how that affects skating, wouldn't proper sharpening eliminate the important part of the asymmetry?

I assume both laser and water cutters that can cut steel as thick as figure skating blades, are extremely expensive, right?

Could someone who knew what they were doing in a machine shop make their own reasonably good quality blades using a CNC router, a jig saw (to cut the runner, perhaps with a blade covered in diamond dust, or another very hard abrasive), and a riveting tool or screws, or vaguely equivalent tools? Instead of tempering the upper part of the runner, to gain flexibility, perhaps they could cushion the runner against the chassis with a piece of rubber... Or is that idea crazy?