Classic "Forgotten" Skating Elements

[Pandora]

Hi!  I'm working on a video youtube channel where I'd like to catalogue the old-style skating elements that you don't see too much anymore. Basically, skating moves that were popular in the 1940s-1970s. Here is the list I compiled so far. If there are any older skaters out there who can add anything, I'd love to include it. I am a Gold Level, older adult skater with a bad left knee and very closed hips, so there are only so many moves that I can manage to demonstrate on my channel, but I'd love to include them in a catalogue listing on the site. I am looking for old, unique moves that aren't much used today. Some moves like the Charlotte spiral and the Cantilever are comming back into vogue (especially with the young Russian skaters). Others, like the toe walley jump, inside axel jump, flying reverse sit spin, and split lutz jump you really don't see very much at all anymore.
So here is my list of "Classic" Skating Elements (Jumps, Spins, Footwork & Spirals). If anyone can add anything, that would be awesome! 

Jumps: Toe Walley, Walley, Inside Axel, Split Lutz, Tuck Loop, Jump-Reverse Jump-Jump Combo (usually with loop jump)

*Not often used by themselves, but these are sometimes seen nowadays, especailly in Footwork Sequences or as transitions into/out of listed jumps: Split Jump, Stag Jump, Ballet Jump, Falling Leaf Jump *

Once on a roller forum, someone mentioned a jump called a Bokay (or Boquet?). He said it was an inside axel takeoff to a IB landing. Not sure if this is or ever was an actual jump. Does anyone know anything about it? Or has anyone ever seen it? 
If my knee holds, I'll try this and the 1-foot axel (I did them years ago, before my knee went bad). Would love to demonstrate/document these "weird" jumps. 

Spins: Reverse Flying Sit Spin, Hamil Camel, FAST (blur) scratch spin (Sonja Henie style), Cranston camel, cross-foot upright spin

Spirals: A few years ago, ladies had to preform a spiral sequence in their long program, but now they usually just include a difficult spiral (Y-slide) or Fan, or just a quick spiral. Long sequences are beautiful but take up too much time.   Edge change Spiral, Round de Jambe Spiral, Layover Spiral

Footwork : Chaines,

I will post some of the classic jumps I have so far in the video area of this site. If anyone else wants to do some of the stuff on here and post it that would be great! Let's keep the old classic stuff "alive!" 

[celia]

Are you referring to the Bourkey jump?  Invented by John Misha Petkevich and named after his coach.  But it was more like a split flip jump with a unique position than an axel-type jump.  Here's a description in Petkevich's own words:
https://books.google.com/books?id=2EQZoKnMN7gC&pg=PA269&lpg=PA269&dq=john+misha+petkevich+bourkey+jump&source=bl&ots=Ni2CyiuER3&sig=ACfU3U2PTHxqqKpRFlfZ2IU68tUpBE4itQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjYudPeq7rtAhVGFVkFHWD4C6QQ6AEwFXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=john%20misha%20petkevich%20bourkey%20jump&f=false

[Pandora]

Oh cool! Didn't know about this one but thanks. I will definietly add it to the list. 

I think I have it here at  4:24:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2UbuzpjZIU

Wow! That's pretty awesome. Kind of similar to a tuck loop, but off a flip entrance. (Kind of a "tuck flip.") I'm not good enough to try it, but will include it in the listing with John Misha Petkevich's name beside it so people can reference it.

No, the person on the roller forum seemed to be definitely talking about an inside axel landed on the BI edge. The only thing I can think of is that roller artistic used the old terminology to refer to some of the jumps. So inside axel was called a Bockl (after Willy Bockl, a figure skater in the 1920s), and 1-foot axel was called a Colledge (after Cecilia Colledge). So maybe since the jump he was describing in a type of Bockl, the name is a veriation on that? Like I said, don't know if this jump even really existed. I never learned it on roller, just heard about it on a forum once. I never actually did one. But if knee holds out, I'll try. If I ever get anything decent on video I'll post it. Maybe make a new jump. New "old-style" jump. LOL! 

But thanks for the info on the Bourkey jump!!! I will definitely include it in the list on my channel. Also just saw video of Toller Cranston doing the Grafstorm camel. Must add that to spin column.

[Query]

I don't know if this interests you, but if you go to
 
  http://books.google.com

and search for "Skating" in the 1800-1920 era,

  https://www.google.com/search?q=skating&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1800%2Ccd_max%3A1920&tbm=bks

you will find a bunch of even older figures and group skating elements (some quite elaborate and difficult) that didn't make it into later eras, as other moves were emphasized.

The School Figures era that some people have returned to, and was included in your time period, was partly a simplified version of those early elaborate figures, though competitive school figures sometimes involved some of the more elaborate things like tracing your name on the ice.

The equipment has changed a lot too.

I read a book by Robert Ogilvie from around 1968

  https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Skating-Skills-Robert-Ogilvie/dp/0397005199

which showed somewhat different skating styles than are used today. For example, instead of the modern stroking pattern in which you stroke in alternate direction arcs, he advocated turning the body in such a way as to follow a straight line more closely. He also wrote other skating books, including

  Competitive Figure Skating: a Parent's Guide

and the early manual for the USFSA LTS classes.


I don't know if you happen to live near a large library, that has a collection of old books, like the Library Of Congress in Washington, DC, or that has inter-library loan privileges with a library that does, but you may be able to find old books on figure skating, including USFSA and ISU rulebooks, that are helpful.

Every once in a while, someone sells off their old VHS videotapes of skating competitions. A used record store often has those. Unfortunately, VHS dates from 1976, so I guess you probably won't find older competitions, except when someone transferred them from an even older format, like film. In fact, maybe you can find transferred archives of high profile competitions.  E.g.,

  https://www.huntleyarchives.com/results.asp?searchtxtkeys=Skating

You could also just look up the names of famous skaters from your chosen era on Youtube, e.g. "peggy flemming"

  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22peggie+fleming%22

and perhaps at a general search engine. For name of some prominent skaters, try

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_medalists_in_figure_skating

and click on each of the "details". I'm sure there are other lists of individual Olympic and ISU event participants if you look hard enough.

There are also a bunch of recently banned moves, like back somersaults, head bangers (a coach told me she mostly trusted her partner - but she also learned to feel when he lost control), laying down on the ice, etc. I found a link with those, as well as banned lifts and other stuff

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKI1rixJwI4

See also

  https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=banned+figure+skating+moves

for more banned and unusual moves in the same vein.

Have fun!

[AgnesNitt]

You should also look up roller elements. Some are the same, but there are also others.

[Query]

When I mentioned banned moves - some of them were banned because they were obviously dangerous. I don't want to encourage you to do those!

[Pandora]

Thanks for the info and the links. I will definitely check them out and include what I can in my listing...... Don't worry about me trying anything crazier than a Hamil Camel. LOL! Backflips! Goodness no!!!    For things like that, I was thinking to add a name and/or a link beside the element. 

Basically, just want to catagorize as many skating moves that are not commonly used in IJS because they aren't strategically useful under that system, (not worth the energy, time etc to preform when you're trying to build as many points as possible in 4 minutes).

Maybe skaters can use it as a quick resource to look for moves to use in Showcase/Artistic programs where they have more freedom and time to include interesting "new" stuff. 

[Query]

Of course a lot of the moves in the old and new LTS program aren't banned, but earn no points at higher than LTS levels.

E.g., you rarely see shoot the duck or hydroblade in TV competitive programs.

There are also styles that have been abandoned. E.g., if you look at Sonja Henie's old performances, her hands and arms move rather freely, almost as though she loosely lets them go where they are thrown by inertia, but now figure skaters tend to have more controlled arms.

I guess you are focussed on freestyle moves, but a decade and more ago I was taught an ice dance style in which close Waltz Position was done with the head and shoulders offset from your partners, so you could get your bodies closer together than the more distant head-to-head style that is now required - I was told to touch hip-to-hip. And at that time, many dancers continually switched sides on alternating inside and outside lobes, so the forwards skater was always to the inside, or in another style, always to the outside, of the arc. Likewise, this involved interleaving the two skater's legs and feet on the ice, which maybe required a higher degree of coordination.

Not everyone did these things, and some people considered it a "Russian" style - but it simply isn't done now, at least not in Waltz position. For the most part, there is more emphasis on dancers being more often apart than together. Which I guess involves a different set of skills to coordinate movement, since if you can't feel your partner's body, you have to stay in sync and in position by other means.

Long before that, in those 1920 and earlier books, you see mentioned very different British and American schools of thought on how figure skating should look. Posture, movement and equipment (e.g., blade curvature) were different. At some point or another, things became more uniform. I assume the ISU put a lot of work into standardizing how judges from many countries would mark skating, and that created more standardization. Though even a decade ago there were some differences - e.g., many of the Russian ice dancers were taught to counter-rotate the upper and lower bodies most of the time (e.g., an alternate foot lobes, and alternate crossovers, I was taught by an ex-Soviet coach to keep my head and body pointed continuously in the the same direction, e.g., at the opposite wall), a style which I think added more power, but most of the American dancers were taught to rotate them together on most of those moves, except during certain step sequences. Because I had a Soviet-trained coach, and then American coaches who had taken lessons from the Russian, these sort of things created significant problems when I tried to partner with American ice dancers who were trained by Americans without exposure to the Russian style.

[Pandora]

Yes! Must add the shoot the duck and hydroblade!  (My chubby, old self won't be demonstrating them, but I'll add a citation/link and include them for sure.)

I know what you mean about the old vs new technique. The "wild" arms, and the loose, (side by side) leg position on the jump rotations, (instead of crossed in front as we do now). And the bent knees on the jump landings and camel spins.....

I never studied ice or roller dance, but it's interesting to note that ice/roller dance has changed too. As a freestyle skater, I never considered that. I just thought that the basic dances were set in stone and have stayed the same from the beginning with new additions being added as time went on. Interesting....

Same with figures. My old roller coach made me learn them when I skated artistic roller in the 80s. I never did them on ice. As a teen on roller I got to loops. My loops were.... um... real bad. LOL!  But yes, I noticed a difference on the old footage of ice figures (patch) too. The older-day skaters used a bent free leg held out from the body (something you don't see later on).

I am mainly concentrating of freestyle, but it's interesting to note how skating has changed in other disciplines (dance and patch) as well...... 

[Query]

What is a Hamil Camel?

[Bill_S]

https://icoachskating.com/learning-a-hamill-camel-charyl-brusch/

[Query]

Your video link to Hamill's performance includes a "butterfly" - is that less common now too?

I'm not good at spins and jumps. But:

I think some of the technique changes, in terms of more controlled arms and changing the final leg position to crossed in front or crossed behind (as in an axe jumpl) are to allow faster spins and jump rotations. E.g., wildly and freely moving the arms absorbs and wastes angular momentum. More controlled motions allow you to transfer angular momentum from the outside arm to the torso spin.

To avoid hijacking this thread, I'll ask whether optimal arm and leg positions can be further improved in terms of speed and extent of spin and jump rotation in a separate thread:
  http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8606.msg102790#msg102790

I'm not sure about the bent knee landings, but I guess the modern technique landing on a more or less straight leg and then bending takes away some of the landing shock, so it might be beneficial too, though I assume it slightly reduces air time. Of course if you bend too early, that increases moment of inertia while you are in the air and still rotating, so you have fewer net rotations. In other words there is a trade-off between air-time and rotation rate. It isn't self-evident whether a bent knee landing leads to more or fewer in-air rotations - but it is at least possible the modern technique was chosen to optimize that.

[Pandora]

Basically, a Hamil Camel is a BO Camel in a layover position. Then the skater holds the layover position as they bend the skating (spinning) knee all the way down to sit spin level, then (at the last moment) the skater "flips" over from the layover position to the traditional sit position and does a sit spin. (A "regular" BO Camel-Sit combo would flip to sit position a lot sooner and would not be done holding a layover position.)

I got a few of mine of video but they weren't good enough to post. I will practice for a few weeks and try again. 

Thanks Query. I'll check out the new thread. 

[Query]

A fair number of years ago, EVERYONE in reasonably high level competitions was required to do a school figures routine.


There seem to be a lot more banned moves in dance and pairs than freestyle.

E.g., one I forgot: Death Spiral

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBpCZZxbIJQ

I know this move was fairly common roughly 10-12 years ago.

I understand that in general, holding a person in the air by one hand or one foot is potentially dangerous - but the death spiral seemed pretty mild - the lady's head wouldn't hit from much height. Plus, she has a skate on the ice. Was that so dangerous? I thought it was beautiful.

There was a trend among high level ice dancers of that era to include one lift of the man by the lady. (At least my coach at the time, who was a competitor, said so.) Not as common now.

[CrossStroke]

Death spiral is certainly not banned - in fact, it is one of the required pair skating elements...

Re: lift of the man by the lady - that was a signature move of John and Sinead Kerr.

[Query]

Death spiral is certainly not banned - in fact, it is one of the required pair skating elements...

My bad. I found it listed as banned on someone else's website. I'm glad it's still there.

As for the lady lifting the man - one of my prior coaches (not one of the Kerrs) mentioned practicing it. She didn't look big enough to lift her partner safely, but competitive athletes sometimes try crazy things.

[Pandora]

Got a Bocket? Bockay? ..... Got "something" on video. LOL! It's an inside axel takoff with a BI landing. I posted it in the Video section of the forum. Mine is a bit prerotated and has a waaaaaay too deep landing edge, but this is the general idea. I kind of like this werid jump and want to work to improve it so I can use it in artistic programs. Does anyone recognize it? Maybe from years ago (1930s? 40s?) Does it have a real name?

[nicklaszlo]

She didn't look big enough to lift her partner safely, but competitive athletes sometimes try crazy things.

A correctly performed basic lift does not require much strength at all.  I've lifted several people larger than myself without doing any strength training. 

Do it wrong and it's quite dangerous. 

[nicklaszlo]

I'd suggest the "Hydrant Lift".

It looks a bit like a twist lift with no rotation.

• Takeoff is a group 4 lift with the lady skating forward.
• The lady is released and performs a split over the man's head.  The man makes a half turn but the lady does not turn.
• The landing is like a group 2 lift.

It is worth zero points in IJS.

[Thin-Ice]

How about the delayed axel? It goes up like a waltz jump until the skater reaches the peak of the jump, then rotates once and lands (softly). Beautiful but not seen any more, since it doesn't receive any more credit than a regular single axel. Charlie Tickner and some of the skaters from the mid-70s to early 80s would put them into free skate programs.

[supersharp]

I love the delayed axel, amazing to fly up and then rotate.  Magic.