Back on the ice after lockdown and having some boot issues

[mjebos86]

Hi all,

I'm an adult skater working on USFSA Freeskate 2. Prior to the COVID lockdown I felt like I was doing pretty well - for jumps, my salchow was decent and I was working on fixing my egregious toe-waltz; for moves in the field, my BO3s and consecutive BO edges were passable and I was working on learning BI3s and BI edges; for spins, I was getting a decent 4 - 6 revs on my upright spin and was learning to make it into .a scratch spin.

I've skated in the Jackson Debut (the version with the LCL sole) in a men's 7.5W, with MK Pros, for the last year and a half, and they've generally treated me pretty well. I had some issues with the heel being a bit wide, but bungas solved that problem satisfactorily - and the balls of my feet are a bit wide, so even in the W boot I had to have some punchouts done. I also pronate a bit, so I use the Riedell R-Fit insole inserts underneath the Jackson insert to help correct that (as well as having my blades placed a bit to the inside). Also worth noting- even prior to lockdown, I typically only tied the lower three hooks -I felt like I got a much better knee bend without the top hook tied, and I felt secure with no lateral movement on jump landings.

I didn't skate at all from the time lockdown started in my state back in March, until I started back in group lessons last month - and I had pretty noticeable issues almost from the get-go. Of course my skating had deconditioned considerably - I seem to have lost my one-foot spin entirely, for example - but what I couldn't get over was how uncomfortable my boots were, almost from the moment I put them on.

I wore my bungas and tied them like I always do, but there was lateral movement in the ankle - something that was not an issue previously with the same bunga / lacing pattern (I use the "Jason Brown" method - looping the laces around the hooks from above, starting with the bottom hooks, jumping to the top and going down from there). I felt too insecure in the boots to handle jump landings or even holding deep edges.

I tried retying them a bit tighter, but to get them tight enough to reduce the lateral movement to acceptable levels I had to tie them so tight that I could barely bend the tongue forward.

More generally - I was surprised by how heavy the boots felt, and how uncomfortable and restrictive they felt overall. I've heard folks who aren't fans of Jackson boots describe them as feeling "like being in a cast," and in the previous year and a half of wearing these boots I'd never agreed with that assessment - until now!

It's been difficult to re-assess what was going on, because after two group lessons with these issues, I sprained my ankle pretty badly while walking home from work, and haven't been able to skate since.

My thoughts / questions are these:

1) It's of course likely that I'm somewhat deconditioned after so long off the ice, but I wouldn't have expected to deteriorate to the point that the boots I'd been skating in reasonably comfortably for a year and a half felt so terribly uncomfortable and restrictive. Has this happened to anyone else?

2) I've had the thought more than once that even at my size (I'm 5'7" and about 200lbs), I might be a bit overbooted in the Debut. I wore my old skates on some dodgy outdoor ice back in December, and although they felt way too soft for me to safely try any jumps beyond a waltz, I was amazed at how much easier it was to get a good bend and spring off the ice, and for some reason spinning felt much easier in the old skates (for reference, they are GAM Concepts with Mirage blades). Could it be that I've deconditioned to the point where I need to scale back to a slightly softer boot?

3) Part of the reason I went with the 7.5W in the Debut was because I already had a pair of 10 1/2" MK Pros I wanted to use on those boots - I had fit OK in the 7W but the blades would have been way too long on them (per Jackson's sizing chart, the correct blade size for the 7 is 10", and 10.25" for the 7.5). My fitter thought the tradeoff was worth it, as the quarter-inch didn't make a huge difference in terms of blade placement for the 7.5, and any sizing issue could be fixed with bungas - but now I'm wondering if this decision is causing the issues with the ankle feeling too loose (maybe the heels are too wide?).

4) Given the uncertainty with my ankle I don't know when I'll get back on the ice at this point, but even after a year and a half in these boots I'm starting to second-guess whether they are really the right choice for me. I'm casting some sidelong looks at Risport, and hearing that they tend to be a decent option for folks with pronation and flat feet. I also hear that they compare favorably to Jackson in terms of initial comfort and weight. In particular, I'm interested in the Royal Pro - I've read they're cut a little lower than a lot of skates which to me seems like it might be a plus (as I'm not tying the Debut all the way up to the top as it is), and I remember looking at them in person at the pro shop and thinking they seemed like a really nice pair of boots.

I know realistically these are questions I should address to my fitter - but if anyone has any helpful thoughts or observations I could bring to my fitter when I eventually talk to her, they'd be most welcome! (Though with the way things are going, this probably won't happen for a while).

Thanks so much!

[FigureSpins]

If they were comfortable before, the b oots probably need to mold to your feet again.  If they were stored in a warm area, they can lose their molding.
Try wearing the skates (with blade guards to protect your floors) around the house for an hour or so each day. 

A quick-mold technique is put a plastic bag over each foot/sock, then tie the skates.  Wear them to walk/skate for a while - the heat builds up and helps it mold quickly.

For first few hours of skating, leave the top hooks unused.  Just tie your bow using the next-to-last hook.  It'll increase knee bend range and help you get used to the blade placement.

[Query]

To some extent boots and other shoes mold to feet. To some extent the reverse is also true. It may help to try skating a little more again, before you make the decision to buy new equipment.

I don't know whether Jackson Debut boots can be heat molded in the type of oven pro shops have. If unsure, call Jackson.

If what FigureSpins said isn't enough, ask your pro shop - even a hockey store will do, if they are any good - whether or not they can do an oven heat mold. You can mold boots yourself using a handheld hair drier, if you are careful and pay attention to heat molding temperatures, but if you are uncertain about doing stuff yourself, a competent pro shop is more likely to do a good job, and the price some of them cite is reasonable.

(In general, going to the lowest bidder on matters of boot fit and other issues isn't always a good idea. Ask other experienced skaters, and coaches, what pro shops they like best, and which skate techs at each shop they like best, and be willing to drive a few hours each way if needed.)

Boots can absorb moisture, if stored in an unusually humid place. But, AFAIK, the weight of the extra water is normally insignificant, and I suspect sweat from normal human feet usually creates a more humid environment than most indoor storage environments. Perhaps the perceived increase in weight issue is more likely a matter of not being used to using ice skates, or skating-specific fitness issues.

It is obviously possible that fitness might change the shape of your feet a little, and might change your ankle bend strength as well. Not only that, but if you haven't been doing appropriate stretch exercises, the range of motion of all your joints (e.g., ankle joints, hip joints), might be less. So, even if you decide you want new boots, or if needed, new blades, you might want to give yourself more skating time again to get back in shape and flexibility, so the new fit stays right.

I like to make or modify or add my own insoles. If you add thickness (e.g., with coach tape or other cloth athletic tape) underneath the insole where the fit is loose, you can sometimes snug them up that way, though you need to be careful that it doesn't adversely affect your sideways balance. If you make the insoles extra wide in the spots where the fit is loose sideways (or you you add tape from underneath that extends next to your feet), they will come up around the sides of your feet and snug them up. Alternately, you could firmly stick good quality moleskin to the insides of the boot next to where they are loose - a somewhat temporary solution, but a lot of people use it.

I disagree with a lot of people, including people with more experience than me, about blade length. I don't think the nominal lengths have to match the lengths of the outsoles of your boots, especially on non-custom boots. (On fully custom boots, boot makers sometimes deliberately size the outsoles so most fitters will pick what they guess is the "right" length blades for your feet. But that is much less likely to be true on your off-the-shelf boots - e.g., the internal length of your boots might be significantly less than the lengths of your feet.) I think they should instead work with the anatomy of your feet - though it is true that if the insides of a specific pair of boots have more or less front-to-back tilt, the vertically projected length of the feet onto the blades will be less or more, so to that extent blade length should depend on internal boot shape. Nonetheless, my theory at least, is that, to keep your blades, you don't have to order the size of your boots to match the nominal length of the blades, but could order boots that fit you better.

I also disagree with a lot of people, including people with more experience than me, that there is only one possible place, front-to-back, to mount your blades. (Again, on fully custom boots, boot makers sometimes deliberately position the outsoles so most fitters will mount the blades in the right position, which is less likely to be true on stock boots.) If you are having trouble pointing your ankles enough to dig in a toe pick for a jump (that applies to both edge and toe jumps), you could mount the blades a little bit further back. Of course, if they are too far back, it is easier to trip your self by crossing your blades, and it can be very hard to balance and skate if what I was told to call the "sweet spot" (where the rocker curvature of the blade changes) isn't approximately below the balls of your feet.  (I personally like the sweet spot slightly forwards of that). I am not a good enough jumper to guess if the position of the tails of your blades can also adversely affect jumping, but on jumps where you land on the tail, it seems like it might. What this boils down to is that optimal blade mount position (which might depend on joint flexibility), involves trade-offs, and you may want to think about whether you think a different mount position will help, and you may need to experiment. If you are not confident about remounting your blades (and it is very easy to strip the holes in leather), get a good pro shop to do it.

But again, give yourself a little more time to re-adapt first.

For that matter, If you are having trouble jumping, I wonder if it is safer at first to get back into shape before doing hard jumps, because jumps are a frequent way to injure yourself.

[tstop4me]

Last time I was on the ice was Mar. 13; I remember because it was a Fri the 13th.  A friend of mine convinced me it was time to get back on the ice.  She restarted last Wed.  I was planning to restart tomorrow.  But I just tried on my boots today for the first time in 6 mos.  Man, they hurt.  I know my feet have changed shape a bit from lumping at home barefoot most of the day (a couple of toes that were slightly bent actually straightened out); and the boots likely deformed somewhat from lumping around as well.  I'm going to try lacing/unlacing and walking around the house (guards on) for several days to re-break them in a bit before going back.