Never bought new boots before, they're all uncomfortable?

[khii]

Hey all,

I've been skating in too-big second-hand Risport RF3 Super for a while. (with superfeet yellow) They've never fit right, they're vaguely comfortable but I never feel that well supported around my ankle/heel. They're a size 25 but my foot is just around 23cm long. I also get arch pain in one of my feet with them while skating and I was told it's probably because they're too big.

I went to the rink pro shop today and they only sell Jackson. They measured me as a sz 5 and tried on Freestyle boots. They feel GREAT around the heel/ankle - finally the close supportive fit I'm looking for! However, they're complete murder on my arches. I couldn't even stand in them for very long without feeling like my arches were being stabbed. I tried a sz 6 but they're probably a nudge too big and I still had (less) arch discomfort.

Apparently they're getting in Freestyle Fusions soon to replace the Freestyle (they only have 1 of the freestyle left in my sizes) . What are the chances the last on these is different enough to solve my problems? Or that I can heat mould any of these boots to fix the pain?

I really want to take lessons but it's been a long time since I've been able to skate for more than 15 mins or so without having to jump off the ice and take off my boots for a minute to stop the pain.

Any advice is much appreciated!!!

BTW there aren't any other pro shops within 5-6 hours of me

[AgnesNitt]

1, Are figure skates all uncomfortable? Pretty much.
2. It took me five pairs of boots to get enough experience to go knowledgeably nose to nose with the boot company and know how the boots need boot be fixed in the first few hours. I always need my boots tweaked after I've skated in them for a week. Andonce I had to have one rebuilt,

[nicklaszlo]

I went to the rink pro shop today and they only sell Jackson.

That would be a problem.  Ask your local coaches where they send students for fitting of other brands of boots.  Ask experienced local skaters how they got their non-Jackson boots.

[Loops]

Chiming in here to say that skate buying always sucks.  Different brands have different lasts, so do try on different brands. You can hope, but don't expect anything to be perfect.  You're looking for livable right out of the box, Heatmolding will help with small things, but you very likely will need various bits punched out.  While it's fun and cool to get new skates, I do always dread the process.  You are not alone.

Good luck and may the force be with you.

[tstop4me]

Apparently they're getting in Freestyle Fusions soon to replace the Freestyle (they only have 1 of the freestyle left in my sizes) . What are the chances the last on these is different enough to solve my problems? Or that I can heat mould any of these boots to fix the pain?

The new Freestyle Fusions are built on a different last than the previous Freestyle.  The Freestyle Fusion is built on the Elite last, which is stock split width, with the heel one width narrower than the ball.  So, if you want to maintain a snug-fitting heel, while having a roomier toe, this last is a good choice.  But since you don't know the cause of your arch pain, you can't predict whether the new last will help.  Is your skate tech willing to hold the existing pair of Freestyles until the new models come in, so you can do a direct comparison? 

The problem is there are so many variables.  As others mentioned, you might be better off with another brand entirely.  Also, if you have flat feet, you might need more supportive insoles; the stock Jackson footbeds provide little support.  A competent fitter (if you can find one) should be able to go over options with you.

[DressmakingMomma]

I would say that if you can't stand in them off the ice, then skating in them will be impossible. It has been our experience that even comfortable boots in the pro-shop don't always work once my daughter gets on the ice. Some heat molding/tweaking should be expected, but unbearable is hard to fix.

Are you wide around the ball of your foot, or narrow? I would suggest following instructions for custom boot ordering (look at manufacture's websites for instructions) to do your own foot tracings and measuring - even if you have no plans of custom boots. You will need a friend or family member to help in order to get accurate measurements. It will give you a better idea of your sizing and help with conversation points when you see your skate tech.

[khii]

Thanks so much for all the replies. It sounds like I need to find a more useful skate tech/fitter and/or find a coach to ask. I've just moved to the region and don't know any coaches and I really want to fix my skate situation before I take any lessons, because I'm currently having to jump off the ice every 10-20 mins to adjust my skates 

I think I'm medium to wide around the ball of my foot compared to my heels, because I have mild-moderate bunions.

On a side note, anyone here in New Zealand (South island)? I really need some local advice haha

[skatemom189]

It sounds like those boots are too narrow.  Try the same size Freestyle in a wider width.  The skate fitter should measure your foot width to pick the proper one.

In our experience, Jackson's don't my DD with a high arch and instep.  She sticks with Risport.  You may warn to consider those again, but in a size that fits.  The Risport stiffness equivalent would be the Electra Light.
Good luck!

[nicklaszlo]

I'm currently having to jump off the ice every 10-20 mins to adjust my skates 

That's not unusual for new boots.

[nicklaszlo]

On a side note, anyone here in New Zealand (South island)? I really need some local advice haha

If you're willing to wait and to spend some money, you could try asking Australian fitters to meet you at Nationals in Sydney.  They'll probably all be there.

[Query]

10 hours travel sounds like a lot of time and money, but compared to the time you will spend, and potentially suffer, in your skates, and the injuries you may incur, it isn't all that much, to see someone who knows what they are doing, assuming that gets you to a real expert.

BTW, skates should fit well all over, not just at the heels and arches. Anything else can cause serious injuries. E.g., you don't want to make your bunions worse by squeezing your toes from the sides, or whatever. If you aren't sure you can do it yourself right, you sound like a good candidate for that 10 hour trek, or the trip to Sydney.

It's quite common for people to modify insoles to correct arch and other problems often by doing something as simple as adding a little tape underneath, or, a little more complex, making your own insoles. I believe most people can be fit comfortably, though skates, like downhill ski boots, will never be as comfortable for most of us as some shoes, because they don't breath as well as sandals, and should support the full three dimensional foot and ankle well everywhere, with the possible exception that many doctors say that most people shouldn't have their toes squeezed much from the sides or front. I'll send you a link, but you would have to figure out and/or experiment for yourself whether you need more or less support material under the arches, or to thicken or thin material around various parts of the sides of your feet, and so on.

P.S. If you can't do it yourself, did a doctor or other medical practitioner diagnose your bunions? If so, can he/she help you analyze what is causing the pain? Or perhaps there is a really good ski boot or other boot fitter in your area who could help? Skates have some special issues, but boots are still boots - though a great figure skate boot fitter would definitely be best.

Also, coaches and other skaters in your region can be a great resource for finding first class fitters. I don't know your part of the world, but a small country like NZ is unlikely to have more than one or two such, if that, and even Australia might well have only one or two. Another option would be to ask each of the major boot makers (see http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=1173.msg10144#msg10144) for the names of good fitters in or near NZ. If several makers mention the same fitter, that would be a good sign.

[khii]

Thanks so much everyone for all the helpful responses! You guys are awesome. Skate fitting is definitely a challenge, I asked around and ended up being referred to another fitter who specialises in importing and fitting/modifying primarily Edea skates, so now i have a choice of multiple brands. Unlike the rink pro shop, this fitter took a closer look at my feet and did the measurements both length and width and took outlines to confirm the width, including how wide my toe area is. I learned that one of my feet is quite a bit wider than the other around the forefoot/toes    Also confirmed that i'm wearing sz250 and should be wearing sz235 haha whoops

That's not unusual for new boots.

To clarify, this is with my current boots which I've had for over a year but they've never fit right :[

P.S. If you can't do it yourself, did a doctor or other medical practitioner diagnose your bunions? If so, can he/she help you analyze what is causing the pain? Or perhaps there is a really good ski boot or other boot fitter in your area who could help? Skates have some special issues, but boots are still boots - though a great figure skate boot fitter would definitely be best.

They were diagnosed by a podiatrist I saw once, who said that I had normal/high but collapsed arches and basically that I got bunions due to pronating feet/ankles. Their recommendation was insoles in everything (and i do wear superfeet in my skates) but I'm also trying to do arch strengthening exercises. Funnily enough I did actually get much better service when I bought ski boots a few years ago! I think because skiing is so much more popular/common here than skating, haha. I went from pain in ski boots -> total comfort in ski boots (as comfortable as ski boots can be anyway). I did wonder if I could get skates heat molded in a ski boot heat molding set up....

Sounds like I might be taking a holiday in Sydney if I don't get my boots sorted out adequately here 

[Query]

I did wonder if I could get skates heat molded in a ski boot heat molding set up....

The heat molding that many skate shops can do does NOT include the insole, so it would not help with arch support. That is true of Edea boots too, even some Edea dealers do a somewhat different style heat mold, which, if done right, is claimed by some people to do a better job of fitting the upper part of your boot. In either case, the heat mold may leave the bottom surface of the boot fitting youu feet or not, so some people love them and some people hate them.

However, if I understand correctly, as of a few years ago, most good ski shops make custom insoles that fit your feet by heat molding cork in a full 3 dimensional sense. What that essentially means is that pressure is equalized over the whole bottom of your feet - for most people a better fit.

Most of the Superfeet insoles, like any non-custom insoles, work well for some people but not for all - probably not even for most. Because they don't have customizable surface contours - ideally the shape should be fully customized to your feet and boots. However, Superfeet, and some other brands, also sells nominally custom insoles and orthotics, that may be heat molded to your feet, in an appropriately designed oven, in somewhat the same way as the ski boot cork insoles - except that they sometimes rock and shift around in the boot, because they only warp a fixed thickness rigid insole, which is not ideal for skating, though a lot of people do use such heat moldable insoles and are more or less happy with them. Cork, on the other hand, if I understand correctly, is more heat moldable in full 3D shape, and is therefore theoretically better than most of the heat moldable insoles and orthotics (I think an "orthotic" is just an insole provided by a licensed medical practitioner - even the most common off-the shelf moldable ones that are heat molded by pro shops and podiatrists. So, if that ski shop did a great job with heat molded cork insoles, they might be able to do a good job in skates too - if I understand correctly.

There is a potential catch. I'm not sure if "high but collapsed arches" would be optimally fit by equalizing pressure. It is possible that you need unequal pressure on some part of your feet to prevent a excess collapse when you put weight on it - but I'm not an expert. It is also possible you need the insole or orthotic to be made of foams of variable stiffness under different parts of your feet, so the blade edge depth doesn't tend to change as you put weight on them.

OTOH, a good sports podiatrist, or similarly trained sports medical practitioner, might be able to recognize that merely equalizing pressure isn't good enough for your particular feet, and could perhaps compensate for more issues. If they are really, really good, they can even custom make an orthotic using different stiffness materials.

The advantage of modifying your current insoles using tape is that it only costs a few pennies, can be a DIY job, and you can fully customize the bottom contour of the insole any way you like, until you are completely comfortable. If you know what you are doing, and can feel where your feet don't fit, almost any high priced insole or orthotic is a waste of money - because you can probably do it better yourself cheaper. But you have to experiment yourself to get it right, and be willing and able to figure it out. Likewise for cutting your own insoles. Of course, if your boots also squeeze your toes from the sides or front, that isn't enough - you also need to stretch the leather in appropriate places. Something that any good well equipped pro shop can do, up to a point. You can also do yourself, if you buy appropriate tools. If the fit is too tight vertically, you may also need to sand down your current insoles, or make your own.

As far as your feet being of different width near the toes - that can be handled by a "split fit", something many good boot makers can do, especially if you get full customs.

[nicklaszlo]

I did wonder if I could get skates heat molded in a ski boot heat molding set up....

You can use a home oven.  I have done it a number of times.  Follow the instructions Jackson has posted on their Youtube channel. 

It works better with a convection (fan forced) oven.  If you do not have one, turn the oven off before you put the boots in.

[Query]

Be careful with the home oven.

The fumes from cooked boots are probably toxic (leather is "tanned" with toxins such as Chromium(III) sulfate to discourage mold, bugs, and other forms of decomposition), so may you shouldn't cook food at the same time, and maybe cook out the fumes for a while before cooking food again. (I would do the same thing after using an oven cleaner, which also might be toxic.) (If you overcook Chromium(III), I wonder if you could get Chromium(VI), a carcinogen... Did you ever see Erin Brockovich?)

Second, many home ovens are poorly calibrated - e.g., they may be 50 degrees F or more off. Use an oven thermometer to check. Also, they cycle (turn on and off), which causes them to vary in temperature a fair bit. If I chose to use a home oven on my precious boots, I would let it cycle a couple times, and verify the temperature AFTER it reached maximum temperature (and shut off) on the second (or later) cycle, and put the boots in at that point.

I prefer to use a hand-held hair drier instead, though it took several heat-and-mold cycles to work, and I selected the hottest of several hair driers. But with one brand/model of boot it didn't get hot enough for molding - if I remember right, many boots are designed to heat mold at about 180 - 185 degrees F (check with your manufacturer), for a few minutes, but that brand/model was designed to heat mold at 260 degrees F for 5 minutes - much hotter than my hair drier reaches even if the hair drier is held very close to the boot. I've seen a well respected skate tech use a heat gun for a spot adjustment, but heat guns get hot enough (often 500 - 1200 degrees F) to burn leather if you aren't very careful, so I'm way too chicken to do that. In either case, I like the idea that one can work on spots, rather than on the whole boot at once.

Maybe I'm just a coward, but it seems best to be a bit cautious. Mold at somewhat cooler temperature, or for less time, than the manufacturer recommends. Sure, you may need to repeat the mold once or twice, but you will probably be very unhappy if your boots come apart because threads or glue melted or burned. (With synthetic boots, which, for example, Edea are at least in part, and some of the other ultra-light models are also, most of the whole boot could turn into a puddle of melted goo, which might also make you unhappy. For that matter, very cheap boots are likely to be plastic too.) You might need to do that anyway - the ovens pro shops use are convection ovens, which heat the boots faster than an ordinary kitchen oven. (They also have better temperature control.)

Of course, all the boot makers I have asked or checked web pages on have recommended not doing it yourself.