How to fix separated heels, on Graf Edmonton specials?

[Query]

1. The bottom layer of leather on my (men's, 2 or 3 year old) Graf Edmonton Special boots has separated off.

Since Graf has just gone out of business, support may be difficult (I tried today, Saturday), though I will try again Monday.

2. Do I fix it with contact cement? What brand and type?

3. My fault - I think my screws were too short, I kept the blades on a test mount (I wasn't doing more than half rotation jumps, and they were designed for triples and quads), and the holes stripped. Should screws go most of the way through the heel?

4. Are the other layers of heel made of leather too?

[Bill_S]

2. I would try DAP Weldwood contact cement. It works fine with leather. Be careful mating the glued pieces together because once you touch the glued surfaces together, their position is fixed.

3. Longer screws would add strength. Because you said that the original holes are stripped, increase screw diameter by one size. Most mounting screws that I've seen are #6 screws (or a metric equivalent), so go to a #8 if the hole diameter in your mounting plate permits it. Drill pilot holes in the fresh material beyond the existing holes to accommodate  the extra length of the new screws. The pilot holes should be smaller than the root diameter of the new screws.Leather will compress easily around the screw threads.

4. I don't know the answer to the question about material for the rest of the heel. My Riedell Gold Stars apparently have a bottom layer of a rubber material. The mounting screw strength comes from the screws engaging the rest of the heel material.

[fsk8r]

Since Graf has just gone out of business, support may be difficult (I tried today, Saturday), though I will try again Monday.

Sorry to not help with the problem, but where did you get the information about Graf going out of business?
Is this the Canadian branch as I just googled and found the Swiss webpage.
And I might just want to replace my Edmontons about now.

[Query]

where did you get the information about Graf going out of business?

A local pro shop skate tech told me. They have sold a fair number of Graf skates. (I don't know if they sold any Graf blades.)

But see links at my related thread: http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7365.msg87928#msg87928

Also, just look at a search engine:

https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=A0LEV7xSmN1XY0QA910nnIlQ;_ylc=X1MDMTM1MTE5NTY4NwRfcgMyBGZyA3locy1tb3ppbGxhLTAwMgRncHJpZANQcV9Ec1FmdlRkZVFtSzk2X2labDhBBG5fcnNsdAMwBG5fc3VnZwMyBG9yaWdpbgNzZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tBHBvcwMwBHBxc3RyAwRwcXN0cmwDMARxc3RybAMyNgRxdWVyeQNncmFmJTIwc2thdGVzJTIwYmFua3J1cHRjeQR0X3N0bXADMTQ3NDE0MDI1NA--?p=graf+skates+bankruptcy&fr2=sb-top&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-002

Someone else with the same model boots just told me that the bottom heel layer (that has come off) is leather, but the other layers are plastic. They put a thin strip of leather around each layer to hide the plastic. He has had heel separation problems too. He used bolts to hold the heel in place.

[Bill_S]

Plastic? Ugh.

Clamping the heel layers together with machine screws would certainly work. Flathead on the inside of the boot, and nuts at the plate could certainly be strong. Be sure to check clearance space to the blade from the hole locations. That can limit tool usage if the holes are too close to the blade. Nuts take space.

To reduce rust, stainless fasteners should be used, and I'd use Nyloc nuts to prevent lockwasher gouges through the chrome on the blade mounting plate.

Post a picture or two after you are done. I'd like to see how it works. It's an interesting problem to have.

[Query]

(Update - Graf isn't out of business. Graf Switzerland, the main business, is still going strong.)

I contacted Graf Switzerland, and they said:

Can you send us a picture, please?
Without knowing here it separates off I can only say that the glue you have to use to repair it has to be an elastic one even when it is getting cold. If you use another one it is very likely that your heel is going to burst again. The best way is to as a shoemaker if he can stick it together.
Our heels are out of leather with a core out of hollow wood for the lightness.

Most of this separated heel are caused by to short screws. We advise our customers to use screws that are at least 25 mm (it's metric) long to prevent such cases.

I have done as they requested, and await their response. Of course, I want to use a glue (even if I decide to bolt it too) that can take heat molding temperatures (About 180, I think, for these boots), so it can safely be re-heat-molded. The layers separated cleanly, so maybe I don't need a "filler" glue.

Looking carefully, I think the layers that separated are both the same type of leather, at least on my boots. It is only the bottom-most layers, so the damage didn't reach to the wood core. I don't know why the other person thought they were plastic - maybe he was just unhappy with Graf.

I got these boots used. Interesting: With the bottom layer torn off, I can see that some of the attempts to fill past holes, including my own attepts with Shoe Goo, only went through the first layer. I need to rethink how to apply Shoe Goo in such a way that it is pushed deeper. I guess you can sometimes learn stuff by taking damaged things apart.

Unfortunately, I sometimes learn best by making mistakes...

[Query]

I sent them pictures, that showed that the bottom leather layer tore off cleanly.

Graf replied:

Thank you for the pictures.

I am still convinced that a shoemaker is the easiest way but if you really want to do it yourself, you will have to find an elastic glue for cold temperatures. It does not have to be heat resistant because if you want to mold the shoe again, it want get hotter than 30 degrees (only heat the boots for 1-2 minutes in the oven at 100 degrees). We use Köraplast 199 for the heels. This glue has to be warm while using and than needs to cool down.

You can also use bolts but put them somewhere you do not have to mount the blades afterwards.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen
Laura Di Nardo

I can understand why she recommends leaving it to a professional. The proper application of Köraplast 199:

  http://ragasztastechnika.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/199_koe_ps_gb.pdf

exceeds my abilities, dedication and equipment. I would have to prep the surfaces, prime them with another adhesive, and heat the adhesive to 70 - 80 degrees centigrade over a period several days. Then let the glued surfaces set over a period of up to 3 weeks.

Maybe I could get away with Shoe Goo or Barge Cement?

I am asking Shoe Goo's manufacturer (http://eclecticproducts.com/contact) whether Shoe Goo will remain flexible at ice rink temperatures.

I will also contact Barge, at

  http://www.bargeadhesive.com/contact.html

and ask the same question about Barge Cement.

Maybe one of those, combined with inch long mounting screws, will be enough.

Ice rink temperatures go down to about 19 degrees Fahrenheit, according to

    https://prezi.com/jmbmx-oaonha/ice-rink-temperatures-which-is-faster
    https://www.cdihvac.com/Content/Images/uploaded/IceArenasApplication.pdf

I'll also ask Graf whether they can fix the boots themselves - and what it would cost.

In the mean time, looking at the instructions for applying Köraplast 199, maybe we need to appreciate just how hard it is to make ice skates. (And I once thought I could make skates out of duct tape. )