Coaching methodology...

[jlspink22]

Ok so I'm trying to understand what my DD is working on and where she's going with these lessons.

She passed Basic 3 on paper (I think?) but is "finessing" B4 and B5 skills. She's in B5 groups, so honestly I have no idea if they will pass her 2 levels in one session.

But in privates, she's doing side toe hop - to- bunny hop- lunge combos? Backwards crossovers to Waltz jumps, and is working on a toe loop? And yes she can do a toe loop (not perfect but working on it). Seems like madness for me whose used to going in a defined order?!

Anyone have any ideas?!

[Neverdull44]

Welcome.  I'm working on Adult Bronze, but can do some things from the silver and gold tests.    Doesn't mean I'm a silver or gold level skater, yet.  And, my really picky coach picks even my three turns apart. . .  which I have done for 35 years.  Or, my crossovers or stroking, because it can always be more elegant, better extension, faster, smoother, etc.     All skaters are in a range of levels, and even the basic elements (like stroking) can be done weakly by a puny beginning skater or with the finesse of an ice dancer at full 20+mph speed across the ice.  For skaters, there is a level that they have clearly mastered, one with difficulty, and one that they might be able to do some of the moves.  But, until they are at the mastery level, it is really dangerous to move them on too soon.  She risks a bad fall & concussion.   Coaches are not moving skaters up, mainly because of safety reasons.    Skating takes alot of time on the ice.  In 10 weeks, if she goes 5 times a week, she might just pass all the levels.  But, if she goes 1 time a week, maybe not.   Most importantly, IS SHE HAVING FUN?   If so, then she's at the right place and at the right time.

A waltz jump is a half turn in the air.  One can get away with just over a quarter of a turn (90') in the air.   It's very important that she absolutely perfects the waltz jump, with the free leg swinging straight through (not around in a circular motion).  The reason for this, is the axel jump.    Axel takeoff has to be straight up.   I'm sure the coaches are watching to make sure that she doesn't develop this very bad habit of swinging around.   But, to a spectator, any waltz jump is going to, "she took off forward and landed backwards".  But, I've seen kids do this jump, taking off on the inside edges, landing with inside edges, free leg hurling around (instead of through), little/no jump/air time.   They are no where near even close to having this jump.  They need time on the ice.  A coach is going to be able to do a multi-bootlength, hang 10 waltz jump.  I don't think her coaches are expecting her to jump a waltz like Jason Brown, but they are probably looking for clean, outside edges on take-off and landing, free leg coming straight through, and feet (or one foot) off the ice.  And, a little checking of the arms and shoulders would be icing on the cake to the skating coaches.

A toe loop is a little trickier, but really not that much.  It is alot like a waltz jump, but taken off from the toe pick.   It kind of feels like a waltz jump.  The picking of the toe pick can cause a few issues for the tentative.  Again, it's not a full 380' rotation jump.  Around 90' to 120' is probably more than sufficient to do a single toe loop.

Next up will probably be here salchow jump, which is also alot like a waltz jump.  But, those backwards crossovers are going to help develop her inside, backwards edges.  She has to have a decent inside, backwards edge (which is pretty hard at this level) to do a salchow.  Now, the beginning kids that do this jump are going to do a three turn and immediately jump at the turn.  They can't hold an inside edge, which is key to the jump technique being sound to move them into doubles eventually.  But, to a spectator, seeing a quick three turn and then jump, they are going to think that it's a passing salchow.

Then up will probably be the loop jump, which is nothing like the previous jumps.   But, those backwards crossovers are going to further develop her ability to do a deep, backwards outside edge completely on that foot, without pre-rotation . . . . 

She has alot of levels to go.  And, she, like most skaters, will be a variance between the levels.  Within individual moves, you may think that she has it . . .but the coaches want it fairly mastered with no bad habits . . . because of what's coming up next.

[jlspink22]

I will say she has a decent waltz jump, she was taught to start from a t-stop position to take off on outside edge and she lands on the outside edge with a nice backward glide. She was skating into it though (like straight up trying to get speed behind it) and scared her coach. Then she jumped and did a 360 turn in the air and scared him some more so he showed her the toe loop. Her stroking, edges and crossovers are coming along nicely, just need to work on those backwards crossovers getting them deep and smooth transitioning. It's interesting to see other kids about her age working on mostly stroking (MITF?). Maybe that's later on since we just started lessons in April '14.

[Neverdull44]

Wow!  April and can do a 360!    That's talent.

[sarahspins]

But in privates, she's doing side toe hop - to- bunny hop- lunge combos? Backwards crossovers to Waltz jumps, and is working on a toe loop? And yes she can do a toe loop (not perfect but working on it). Seems like madness for me whose used to going in a defined order?!

Side toe hope is B5, and bunny hop and lunge are B6, so that's not a huge jump in level, and combining them is really fun for most kids, which is why many coaches teach them in combination like that, but the other jumps are a little bit higher, the Waltz from back XO's is from FS1 (standstill is B8) and the toe loop from FS2, but it does point out one of the benefits of private lessons vs group instruction, and that is simply flexibility - her coach has the freedom to pick and choose elements for your daughter to work on as she feels she is ready for them individually, rather than rigidly sticking to just what elements are at a given level (or only introducing skills from one level higher). 

Honestly one of the biggest downfalls I'be seen to group instruction is that often a student gets "stuck" on a single skill and will remain in a level while they could be learning skills from the next level up, but that's just not how group instruction works.  With private lessons you can pick and choose and still take time to work on any skills that are giving a student trouble.

It's definitely not madness and all of what you described seems appropriate to me - it's all part of keeping a student engaged and eager to work on new skills - learning jumps and skills from higher levels is a little bit like it's own reward.

[ARoo]

Coaches regularly introduce higher level moves, but as you watch the progression you will realize that what you thought was a toe loop "back then" will look more like the "then" portion of a "then and now" video.  Trust me, I have a lot of those videos.   

In basic skills, I agree with a previous poster, they should be having fun.  It will be a natural progression from basic skills once a week to adding a second day, then a 3rd, etc.  Coaches want to keep the kids interested, so you will almost always see them working ahead to the next levels as long as it's safe to do so.  As the skater progresses, this becomes even more true. 

A skater who is competing with only singles or even a limited number of singles may already be working on doubles.  It takes a very long time to go from the first attempt at a double to competition ready doubles.  It will also take a very long time from that first toe loop to being competitive at the level that requires them.  For reference, my daughter did not compete with a toe loop until 10 months after the first introduction of the toe loop. 

The first level where a skater can compete a toe loop also requires many more items that will not have been introduced yet at Basic 5-6 and also more power, edge control, etc.  They just need to be working on those items now.  As your skater moves out of basic skills and into regular lessons, the emphasis on test order pretty much goes away.  Most skater will be working way above their test level so that when they compete, they aren't competing with things they haven't mastered.

[DressmakingMomma]

When my dd was in group lessons she zoomed through the levels. Once we began working with a private coach last year, the route of her progress changed and it has taken her an entire year to pass FS1. Rather then focus on a set of listed skills per level, her coach works on building up her athleticism, overall skating power and grace, and continued perfection of each element. She technically can't pass FS2 yet has all the skills in FS4 and is starting axel exercises but doesn't land a full flip or lutz yet. This is the beauty of private coaching vs. group lessons because the coach has the luxury to build a lesson around a specific skater's weaknesses and strengths.

I am somebody who likes things to be orderly so I've had to get out of the way and just let the lessons develop as dd's coach sees fit. It's fairly easy to do because I absolutely trust her coach, who has worked hard to build a great relationship with dd. Plus I see how amazing her older skaters are and realize that if we follow along with her methodology then dd may be able to skate as they do one day.

[techskater]

That is a very important point: you have to implicitly trust your coach that he/she knows what they are doing.

[ChristyRN]

My coaches opted to move me on when I got stuck on scratch spin. I've been trying to learn it for about 10 years. If they hadn't let me work around it, I would have quit years ago. I do work on them nearly every session, and they are finally coming. Well, until I knocked myself out. . .

[twinskaters]

My girls' group lessons often have skills thrown in from higher levels, to keep the kids interested and challenge them. In privates their coach tends to work on perfecting basics for whatever level they're competing at, rather than introducing higher skills. A lot of backwards crossovers and no jumps right now, even though they can do a waltz jump in group. I trust him 100% and know he understands them well enough to know the best way to structure their lessons, so I stay out of it and let them do their work.

[jlspink22]

Oh trust me I just sit back and watch - it's just goes against my type A personality to not wonder....

I do enjoy seeing her learning new things, although we had a pretty good spill on Black Friday. Little miss tried to do her waltz like an axel again and landed butt to side to sliding right across the ice. Luckily not hurt, but I had to reinforce what her coach said- sometimes we think we are bigger than we really are.

You all make very good points!