Spinning Direction sf, 4/2004

[Isk8NYC]

Spinning Direction

Dragonheart
04-29-2004, 12:36 PM
OK coaches give me some input;
How do you determine which way a child should rotate?
I determine wether or not the child is left footed or right footed because of
the strong landing leg.



backspin
04-29-2004, 01:11 PM
If someone hasn't ever jumped or spun before, you can usually can tell by asking
them which way is their "more comfortable" way when doing forward crossovers.

One of my friends simply has the kid stand still in front of him, & then tells
them to turn around three times. Whichever way the kid turns without thinking
about it (his theory is), is their natural spin/jump direction. Problem is, I've
tried this a few times & it doesn't always seem to work.



AshBugg44
04-29-2004, 01:32 PM
Most kids automatically spin counter-clockwise, I've noticed.



d b n y
04-29-2004, 02:04 PM
Most kids automatically spin counter-clockwise, I've noticed.

That's because that is the most comfortable direction for righties and most
people are right handed.

When first teaching spins, I ask a child to try in both directions and then
choose which they like better.



twinkle
04-29-2004, 02:47 PM
Counter-clockwise is not necessarily the most comfortable direction for
right-handed people. I am right-handed and when I taught myself to spin I
automatically went clockwise.

My coach teaches his pupils to jump and spin both ways when they are learning
the basics(upright spin, waltz jump).



Spreadeagle
04-29-2004, 03:35 PM
I have heard that it's whatever direction you are most comfortable doing a back
outside 3 on. If your right foot is more comfortable, you spin
counter-clockwise, if left is more comfortable, you spin clockwise.



d b n y
04-29-2004, 04:50 PM
Counter-clockwise is not necessarily the most comfortable direction for
right-handed people. I am right-handed and when I taught myself to spin I
automatically went clockwise.


Right. I meant to say it is usually the most comfortable direction for righties.



Dragonheart
04-29-2004, 05:47 PM
The problem with the let the child turn and decide method(which I did for many
years)is as backspin said,it does not allways work because they often go a
different direction each time.I usually ask a child to kick my glove and which
ever foot they kick with is the decisive factor as to their strong leg.If right
footed counter clockwise.There was a top level coach that changed a world
competitors direction after they were allready a champion.Fassi was the coach I
believe and I can't remember the skater.



Michigansk8er
04-29-2004, 05:59 PM
My daughter is one of the odd ones. She is right-handed, but skates as a leftie.
When she was a gymnast, even her compulsory routines were totally reversed from
everyone else on the team. I wish I could remember how the coach determined
which way she learn to jump/spin, but I don't. Interesting topic. I think I'll
ask my coach what his take is on this.



Lmarletto
04-29-2004, 07:06 PM
My daughter's coach watched her as she was learning waltz jumps and two foot
spins and then decided CW was her stronger direction. She is right-handed, but
left-eyed. I've noticed though that her self-taught one foot spins and
"twizzles", which her coach rarely sees, go either way.

Is spin direction like handedness, where some people strongly prefer one or the
other and other people have varying degrees of ambidextrousness? Does anyone
know if elite skaters who jump and spin in both directions started doing that at
a young age or picked it up later? I've noticed that coaches at our rink
identify a skater's direction very early and focus almost exclusively on the one
direction. Don't ice dancers have to spin in both directions?



2sk8
04-29-2004, 07:22 PM
Hmm...really interesting question - I'd love to hear some coach responses too. I
personally don't know of any righties that spin/jump CW, though I am sure they
exist. As a "lefty", I do spin /jump CW, but really don't remember if that's how
I learned it as a kid (many years break in between). If someone asked me about
"more comfortable" direction for crossovers, I'd pick CCW! -- Perhaps that is
just the result of years of a lefty adjusting to a righty world! If asked to
kick a glove, it'd be my right foot. If asked to do a back outside 3 - more
comfortable on my left (but kids just starting out can't do back outside 3s,
right?) Many things, like twizzles, I'm more "equal" on than most, can also do
basic spin & waltz jump either way. Perhaps just adjusting over the years,
perhaps a sign of less a "strong" handedness - is there a science to this
decision or more of an art?



AshBugg44
04-29-2004, 07:39 PM
I have heard that it's whatever direction you are most comfortable doing a back
outside 3 on. If your right foot is more comfortable, you spin
counter-clockwise, if left is more comfortable, you spin clockwise.

The only problem with that theory, although it makes a lot of sense, is that (at
least in the ISI curriculum), you have not learned back 3's when you enter into
Freestyle 1, which is when you learn a waltz jump and two foot spin. Even more
so, we casually teach two foot spins to lower levels, and they can't even do two
foot turns, let alone a back 3.



techskater
04-29-2004, 07:59 PM
The skater referenced that Fassi changed was John Currie. He spun CW but jumped
CCW. Fassi retaught him to spin the CCW direction to improve his jumps (his 3's
were inconsistent).

My coach was another one who jumped CCW but spun CW. She spent some time with
Mr. Lussi and became known as the "puker" because she was required to do 100
spins every hour in the CCW direction (no jumps, no figures, no nothing else)!
She'd get off the ice at the end of the session and puke!



Dragonheart
04-29-2004, 08:31 PM
Jumping and spinning should be in the same direction,not only because loops and
backspins are the basics for all multi rotational jumps but in my opinion
programs flow better when they are both done the same direction.Allthough the
skater that can throw in the occasional jump or spin in the opposite
direction,if done well,adds to the technical difficulty.ie Michelle's camel.



Schmeck
04-30-2004, 05:26 AM
If there is a chance that your skater will be interested in doing synchro, go
CCW now, if possible! My older daughter is a right-handed CW skater, and now
must learn to spin and do all single jumps up through lutz CCW. Even basic moves
like a split jump must be re-learned to make it onto the team.

Funny thing is, when she did gymnastics, she did her floor routine (compulsory)
right-handed. Actually, she's pretty ambidextrous (sp?) and doesn't have a
strong side for much of anything. :roll:

During Basic Skills class, I remember the instructors lining the skaters up
facing away from them. They'd then tap the student on the shoulder for them to
turn around - whichever way they turned was the way they jumped/spun. Spun? Is
that right? I need more tea this morning, LOL!



Mrs Redboots
04-30-2004, 06:19 AM
Hmm...really interesting question - I'd love to hear some coach responses too. I
personally don't know of any righties that spin/jump CW, though I am sure they
exist.Oddly, most of the people I know who are clockwise skaters are
right-handed. I'm basically a clockwise skater myself - my turns and everything
are far stronger that way - but because I do so little free skating, I do jump
and (now) spin anti-clockwise. But I think that, if I'd started out as a free
skater, I'd be a clockwise one. Certainly, when I began to spin, I spun
clockwise - I now spin equally badly in both directions, but marginally better
anti-clockwise.



Live-a-little
04-30-2004, 06:50 AM
If there is a chance that your skater will be interested in doing synchro, go
CCW now, if possible! My older daughter is a right-handed CW skater, and now
must learn to spin and do all single jumps up through lutz CCW. Even basic moves
like a split jump must be re-learned to make it onto the team.




My daughter is the same. Right handed - jumps left. At 13, joined the synchro
team and there are jumps in their routine. Finds it extremely difficult to do
even a single flip in the opposite direction.

I seem to remember when she started out, her coach asked her to skate up the ice
and turn. And whichever way she turned, the decision was made.

Over the years she has found that being a left jumper is a real nuisance,
especially at seminars where groups of skaters are asked to perform an element
together. She has to inform the person-in-charge that she is a leftie, so that
she can do the elements in a specific area - for safety reasons. She has had a
couple of nasty collisions on the ice, in the early days. Nothing serious....
but at the time, it was scary.

As well, if a skater ever wants to be a pairs skater, it is really difficult to
find a suitable partner.



Bailey
04-30-2004, 07:01 AM
I used to coach in university. Jumping and spinning should definately both be
the same direction. I would usually start with the skate to the boards, turn
around and the way they would turn in the most natural. But, sometimes the kids
can tell you - this way feels better - and often you can see which direction
they have more control. I only remember one girl who was right handed but would
spin clockwise (unnatural for me).



johnfisher
04-30-2004, 08:47 AM
When I started skating I taught myself to jump CCW and spin CW. My first coach
let me get away with this, but my second immediately made me change my spin
direction which wasn't easy at first. Now, quite a few years later I can spin
both ways, but I am much stronger CCW and CW now feels a bit goofy. CW camels
are just doable, but my CW sit is terrible. Not that I've spent much time trying
to learn, but I have never been able to do much of a CW backspin either.

I think it is not unusual for a skater to find spinning one way and jumping the
other easier at first, but in the long run I think all skaters will find they
will be strongest spinning the same way as they jump.

John



Isk8NYC
04-30-2004, 09:39 AM
I always start teaching rotation with basic two-foot spins and I think that you
should spin/jump in the same "direction."

I can do the basics in both directions, so I have students try it both ways and
decide which one is more comfortable for them. I watch them carefully to see
which side is stronger or more comfortable. Some kids can tell you, others
aren't aware enough.

Some kids use left-handedness as an obstacle to doing anything on the right
foot. One little girl wouldn't do right-foot glides for me, claiming that she
was "really left-handed." I joked with her, saying, "So, you walk like this?"
and demonstrated an Igor/mad assistant foot drag. She laughed and agreed to try.

I like the glove-kick suggestion -- I'll have to try that with a few established
skaters to see which foot they use in relation to their spins.



Gold*starblade
04-30-2004, 10:35 AM
I'm right handed but left footed. But actually I think I'm slightly
ambidextrious(sp)? The day that I took my first private lesson at the age of 8
is when my coach determined that I should spin and jump clockwise. I have no
idea how she made this determination but I imagine she felt that my other
skills, I was in FS1 at the time, were stronger that way and although I had
started learning jumps and spins already we started working on the other
direction. Additionally as I got older I found that I could bat both directions
in softball and do many other things better as a leftie but I have always been
stronger with my left hand. So I don't know if there is any one way to make this
determination, perhaps it's just whatever the child does naturally.



NickiT
04-30-2004, 11:49 AM
Counter-clockwise is not necessarily the most comfortable direction for
right-handed people. I am right-handed and when I taught myself to spin I
automatically went clockwise.

My coach teaches his pupils to jump and spin both ways when they are learning
the basics(upright spin, waltz jump).

I totally agree! I'm left-handed yet I spin and jump counter-clockwise. I don't
recall having a favoured side back when I was learning to spin and jump so it
seemed natural to do so the way my coach showed me.

I may add though that Twinkle's coach takes me for off-ice training and he makes
us do jumps both ways off-ice!

Nicki



twinkle
04-30-2004, 12:38 PM
He makes me do them both ways on ice sometimes. Off ice I can do all the singles
the other way and attempt an axel.



NickiT
04-30-2004, 01:38 PM
He makes me do them both ways on ice sometimes. Off ice I can do all the singles
the other way and attempt an axel.

Can't get full rotation the normal way round for me on the axel off-ice so
haven't been asked to attempt it in reverse yet! The one that confuses me the
most is the lutz and the more I think about it the harder it is!

Nicki



Raine
04-30-2004, 01:41 PM
When I began my pursuit of skating, it was always on public sessions and halfway
through the session, when the direction of traffic would change to CW, I
immediately felt at home. I'm also right-handed but a leftie on the ice.

Has anyone ever noticed the relatively high percentage of adult skaters who are
lefties? I think that adults are less likely to be influenced by coaches who
strongly prefer that their students go CCW no matter what.

Happy Skating!
Raine



Mrs Redboots
04-30-2004, 01:55 PM
It's actually quite useful being able to spin in both directions, as it's
another element! Think of Robin Cousins, who not only could, but did spin in
both directions as a matter of course in his routines. And dancers have to,
after all!



skatepixie
05-01-2004, 11:29 AM
My coach didnt really "decide". I learned at first CW when I taught myself the 2
foot spin, but once I got into group it was me and another girl and she was CW.
For some reason I just followed my coach and did CCW, and I am CCW to this day.
I prefer it. Peoples discriptions dont have to be decoded....and I actually am
stronger that way...go figure.



FSWer
05-01-2004, 11:42 PM
That is sooooooo COOL!!!!!! What Team is your Daughter on live a little?



flippet
05-02-2004, 08:36 PM
During Basic Skills class, I remember the instructors lining the skaters up
facing away from them. They'd then tap the student on the shoulder for them to
turn around - whichever way they turned was the way they jumped/spun.
That freaks me out just a little--because, thinking about it, If I were tapped
on my left shoulder, I'd turn to the left--if I were tapped on my right
shoulder, I'd turn to the right. I wouldn't trust any method where
'contamination' (i.e. touching the student) could alter the results.



IceAngel2007
05-03-2004, 06:26 AM
does anyone here besides me jump and spin in two different directions?? or am i
the only one:( :oops:



CanAmSk8ter
05-03-2004, 03:12 PM
Someone asked whether ice dancers have to spin in both directions. I don't know
about the dance spins that are required now, but you do have to be able to do
twizzles in both directions. I can (usually) do triple twizzles from a RFI edge,
but I can only do doubles from an LFI edge. They're getting better, but it's
hard! I do them every time I get on the ice.

When I teach spins to beginners, I usually go by which forward outside 3-turn is
stronger. If I'm not convinced that that's the skater's "good direction", I have
them try it the other way and ask them which way feels more natural. I have
known skaters who spin one way and jump the other way- there was a very good
senior lady at my old rink who did that, actually, and I had a little girl in FS
1 group lessons who did it about a year ago- but I personally would try to nip
that habit in the bud. It's probably not a big deal, but like others have said,
in pairs or synchro it could be a problem.



Schmeck
05-03-2004, 04:46 PM
flippet - you're right - I don't think they were tapped, maybe just had their
names called? It's been a few years since I was on the ice with skaters at that
level, so my mind's a bit foggy about it. Maybe they were just tapped on the
head?

The coach who did this is one of the best trained technicians we have - so I'm
sure she was aware of 'contamination'!



Live-a-little
05-04-2004, 06:32 AM
What Team is your Daughter on live a little?


My daughter is on a provincial Junior synchronized team (Canada).



FSWer
05-05-2004, 07:43 PM
COOL!!!!!! Is it ok to ask what team? Or would you want to keep that private?



Jim
05-05-2004, 09:05 PM
OK coaches give me some input;
How do you determine which way a child should rotate?
I determine wether or not the child is left footed or right footed because of
the strong landing leg.

Ask the skater to do the following and observe:

1: Ask the skater to walk forward with there eyes closed. Walk along behind them
and after a few steps ask them to stop and turn around. Notice the direction
they turn. This should be a good indication of there natural rotation direction.

2: Ask the skater to run a few steps and kick a ball. Notice what foot they kick
with. The leg they kick with is probably going to be there landing leg. If they
kick with the right leg its a good indication there natural rotation direction
is to the left or counter clockwise.

3: Ask the skater to stand with there feet together and jump up and turn around
in the air as many times as they can. The direction they turn is a good
indication of there natural direction of rotation.

4: Ask the skater to jump up and land on one foot. Notice which foot they land
on. The foot they land on is a good indication of the stronger or landing leg.
If they land on the right foot its a good indication there natural rotation
direction is to the left or counter clockwise.

5: Try these little exercises several times over a week so without asking the
skater to turn either direction. You should be able to get a pretty good idea of
the skaters natural direction of rotation.



Jim
05-05-2004, 09:08 PM
OK coaches give me some input;
How do you determine which way a child should rotate?
I determine wether or not the child is left footed or right footed because of
the strong landing leg.
Ask the skater to do the following and observe:

1: Ask the skater to walk forward with there eyes closed. Walk along behind them
and after a few steps ask them to stop and turn around. Notice the direction
they turn. This should be a good indication of there natural rotation direction.

2: Ask the skater to run a few steps and kick a ball. Notice what foot they kick
with. The leg they kick with is probably going to be there landing leg. If they
kick with the right leg its a good indication there natural rotation direction
is to the left or counter clockwise.

3: Ask the skater to stand with there feet together and jump up and turn around
in the air as many times as they can. The direction they turn is a good
indication of there natural direction of rotation.

4: Ask the skater to jump up and land on one foot. Notice which foot they land
on. The foot they land on is a good indication of the stronger or landing leg.
If they land on the right foot its a good indication there natural rotation
direction is to the left or counter clockwise.

5: Try these little exercises several times over a week so without asking the
skater to turn either direction. You should be able to get a pretty good idea of
the skaters natural direction of rotation.



kayskate
05-07-2004, 07:05 PM
Personally, I am very ambidextrous off ice. On ice, I jump/spin CW. I can do
basics in both directions. I teach students in group lessons to turn/spin both
ways. I teach basic jumps both ways (bunny, waltz). As I watch a kid skate, I
can tell which leg they favor by how they stroke, glide, do spirals etc. I have
not taught higher levels so I have not worked w/ kids deciding which direction
to choose.

Kay



twokidsskatemom
05-07-2004, 10:18 PM
does anyone here besides me jump and spin in two different directions?? or am i
the only one:( :oops:
no, you arent the youngest Im sure.
My dd does her jumps and spins ccw right now. just seems to be how she is.



Isk8NYC
06-30-2004, 08:56 PM
I usually ask a child to kick my glove and which ever foot they kick with is the
decisive factor as to their strong leg.
I've been using this trick for a couple of weeks and I absolutely LOVE it! It
takes away the "but I like it better that way" argument, because it's obvious
which is the stronger leg/direction.

Thanks for the great suggestion!



Chico
06-30-2004, 09:50 PM
I asked my coach this question once. He told me to skate in front of him. He
then called my name. Of course I turned around to see what he wanted. The
direction you turn is your stronger side and how he determines which way you
spin and jump.

Chico



Mrs Redboots
07-01-2004, 05:39 AM
I wonder, too, whether directional preference is determined by how well you know
your right from your left. I simply don't know, automatically, and always have
to stop and think about it (so irritating when driving - especially on the
continent, or in the US, where the traffic is on the other side of the road from
home, so I'll usually say "Turn right here" when I mean "Turn left" simply
because it's the 3rd exit from the roundabout, which, at home, is right!).

And I don't know which way I jump and spin - like many others, I taught myself
to jump CCW and spin CW. But then, as various readers of these forums will
attest, on Thursday I got disoriented in my programme, had to rescue it "on the
fly" and wound up skating past the judges in the wrong direction from that which
I'd practiced. And when it came to the cherry flip (toe loop), I simply couldn't
remember which way to jump, or which foot to pick in with....... disaster.....

I'm pretty sure that, had I not learnt to skate at the very end of the "Adults
can't jump and spin, they do dance" era, I'd have been a clockwise skater. As it
is, I'm anti-clockwise, but not very comfortable! I still spin (badly) in either
direction.



vesperholly
07-04-2004, 02:51 PM
When I was in learn to skate and for my first year of private lessons, I jumped
and spun CW. When I was 14, I switched coaches and my new coach said I spin
better CCW, so switched all my jumps and spins. Now, 10 years later, I can still
spin very well CW and until very recently was jumping CCW and doing some spins
CCW (camel, sit, sit-change) and some CW (flying camel, layback).

I decided in March that I wanted to do everything CCW since I wasn't going
anywhere with everything switched all around, and started working on all CCW
spins only. I can now do a decent camel-back camel (something I've never thought
I could do since I couldn't do a CW camel) and flying camel CCW. Layback has
been incredibly difficult to switch. It's still solid CW but really iffy CCW - I
travel the second I start to lean back which is death for a layback.

I'm not a great jumper beyond singles, but I think working on CCW spins will
help that. Especially the CCW backspin, which used to be terrible but has gotten
markedly better. I can still do waltz, toe loop, and sal CW but they're not
good. Loops and flips were 1/2 turn cheated and totally awkward the last time I
attempted them, and no lutz.

As far as moves, I waver. I usually like LO turns and RI turns best - but both
for counters (CW) and three turns (CCW). I think it's more a leg strength thing
than a rotational thing. On novice moves, I can do the CW rocker-choctaws better
(RBI rocker to RFI-LBO choctaw) but the LBI-RFI threes (CCW) better.

What can I say, I'm weird! :twisted:



NCSkater02
07-06-2004, 06:53 PM
Ask the skater to do the following and observe:

1: Ask the skater to walk forward with there eyes closed. Walk along behind them
and after a few steps ask them to stop and turn around. Notice the direction
they turn. This should be a good indication of there natural rotation direction.

2: Ask the skater to run a few steps and kick a ball. Notice what foot they kick
with. The leg they kick with is probably going to be there landing leg. If they
kick with the right leg its a good indication there natural rotation direction
is to the left or counter clockwise.



The only drawbacks to these two methods are other activities--such as band and
military. I was active duty for a while (go Air Force) and if you asked me to
walk away and I turned around, it would be clockwise, because that is an
about-face and feels natural. I don't know what I did pre-AF, but I am right
handed and turn clockwise. However, I spin and jump CCW. And I kick and land
right footed.

When I play cards, I deal left handed. And I count (for surgical procedures)
left handed. I'm just confused, I guess.



mikawendy
07-09-2004, 05:07 PM
Hmm...really interesting question - I'd love to hear some coach responses too. I
personally don't know of any righties that spin/jump CW, though I am sure they
exist....

Many things, like twizzles, I'm more "equal" on than most, can also do basic
spin & waltz jump either way. Perhaps just adjusting over the years, perhaps a
sign of less a "strong" handedness - is there a science to this decision or more
of an art?

I made a list of the CW skaters at my rink that I could think of--there are
about 12 of us off the top of my head, and about 6-8 of them I see regularly at
FS sessions. Most of them are CW skaters but write right handed. I'm CW and
write lefty (but use righty scissors b/c lefty ones are ATROCIOUS in my
experience, very hard to use). I also mouse with my right hand (but that's so I
can write and mouse without my paper getting in the way of my mouse pad, which
is useful at work).

My basic skills instructor at the time had us try both directions, and didn't
make us commit to a side when we learned 2-foot spins. We did have to choose
when we started learning waltz jumps, so that we would spin and jump to the same
direction.

As far as the science to it, it would be interesting to see if anyone in the
Figure Skating Science program (or whatever it is called) at University of
Delaware has ever studied rotational direction....