Spins

[fsk8r]

Out of curiosity at what stage did people start playing around with spin variations?
Up until now I've been focussed on just learning the basic positions such as getting my sit spin low enough and my camel spin to rotate, but my sit spin is 99.9% reliable now.
Someone was asking me about how you do a broken leg sit the other week, and while neither of us knew how, we both messed around and tried it and I worked out how to do it. It's probably not low enough and I can't hold it long enough, but it's something to play with. But it got me wondering whether I should be thinking about playing around with my spins and not just sticking to the plain vanilla versions all the time.

(Any tips on a broken leg sit or any other possible variants gratefully received).

[hopskipjump]

I want to say at about fs2 she started a spin class.  At that time they focused on making the spins they knew better and then adding some simple variations.  It wasn't a lot though and the class became kind of stagnant because she was one of the higher level skaters in the class. 

I'd say they became fun and challenging when she started learning her axel.  At that time she started a choreography class and spin class at a different rink and that really brought in a lot more of the variations because the girls were higher levels than dd and she always wants to try the spins from their programs. 

Axel really improved her backspin and that brought in more possibilities and helped her have a nice centered spin.

[Doubletoe]

I didn't start working on variations until I started competing under IJS.  Nothing like points on a scoresheet to give you an incentive!

[sarahspins]

As you progress and get a reliable sit that you can hold you can start to work on variations.. like pancakes and clamshells and broken leg sits.  Same with camels... once you have that, you can worn on donuts and catch foots and beillmans (all of which can be practiced off-ice as well).

None of the variations magically happen without practice.. I've been doing a lot of pancake spins since I suspect my coach aims to put one in my program.  I think of the sit variations, the pancake is probably easiest since all you have to do is grab your free leg and either wrap it around your spinning leg or put your ankle up on your knee, then you just press your chest down into the "pancake". 

[JSM]

Honestly I still haven't.  When I stopped competing the first time it was the 90s, and a different era!  I'm going to compete IJS events, but my spins are all basic, so I'm not going to get any points for them at all! 

I'd like to work on sit variations, but my coach is (rightly) have me work on getting my sit spin low enough to count first (I've always had a terrible sit).  No sense in varying something that isn't correct in the first place!

I have a nice layback and camel spin, but again, I don't know how to vary them yet.  Heck, I still don't know what the variations are yet, but I'm working on it.  I've only had a coach for not even 4 months yet, so I'll get there.

[fsk8r]

Honestly I still haven't.  When I stopped competing the first time it was the 90s, and a different era!  I'm going to compete IJS events, but my spins are all basic, so I'm not going to get any points for them at all! 

I'd like to work on sit variations, but my coach is (rightly) have me work on getting my sit spin low enough to count first (I've always had a terrible sit).  No sense in varying something that isn't correct in the first place!

I have a nice layback and camel spin, but again, I don't know how to vary them yet.  Heck, I still don't know what the variations are yet, but I'm working on it.  I've only had a coach for not even 4 months yet, so I'll get there.

This has always been my thought, I need to get the basic positions working first and then worry about variations, but I suppose the thought was at what point do you declare the basic position working and move on to trying new things. I don't tend to mess around with too many things without my coach suggesting it first (there's too much to practice to spend too long on playtime), but I know the kids start messing around with things a lot earlier, but they also learn things a lot quicker. If you asked me to try some sort of moves in the field exercise, I'd have a go without thinking, but trying a spin variation has somehow been in a different category in my head. I'm just now wondering whether I should be messing around with these things at an earlier stage. Is there any reason why I try camel-sit despite my camel not being 100% reliable, but I don't try a catch-foot camel other than the coach asked me one time to try a camel-sit?

[FigureSpins]

FWIW, as soon as we had basic sit spins, my friends and I would do "wacky spins" all the time, challenging each other in a follow-the-leader game.  If you blew it, fine, but if you could nail it and add on, that was achievement with instant feedback. I was part of a great group of skating friends: we would watch each other and critique, so we supervised each others' practices to some extent, including the basic position stuff.

I have my students "mix it up" with variants once the spins are recognizable.  I do it partly to alleviate the boredom of practicing the basic position over and over, partly to develop some choreography options for the present/future, and partly to make them more aware of their body during the maneuver.  One of my skaters just started to really spin about two months ago.  We worked on upright/scratch spins and I introduced an upright tuck about two weeks ago and voila!  She's spinning better than ever, although she needs more revolutions for the program she's doing.  While the tuck is too short, her scratch spin has improved dramatically.

I mix it up on jumps as well, although I don't think any of them will compete under IJS at any point in their singles career.  It teaches them that checking is vital and that proper in-air position allows for variety.  Someone who's taking off square, prerotating and flailing just can't do a half-flip with their hands on their hips in the air.  (My newest position is the "snooty skater" where they have to look down their nose at the audience with their left shoulder in front and hands on hips.)   It definitely makes a Basic Skills program much more fun and interesting if you can vary the basics with arm, head and free foot positions.  You have to be careful to not make the element look like something else, which would confuse the judges, but it can be done.

I use video to review and critique ... "If you had centered the spin before doing the tuck, you wouldn't have spun out."  "You want to bring your hands to your sides, but keep your shoulders checked."  Ilike to mess with the harness for really over-their-skill-set moves.  I have one skater who is made of rubber and can put her foot in her ear, but doesn't spin all that well.  During a lesson, I said that she needs to improve her spins because she has the flexibility to do a catch-foot or Biellman spin.  I put her on the harness just to give her a feel for that position, then introduced the camel spin off-harness.  In less than a month of minimal skating, she has a recognizable camel, but it's not stable enough for a catch-foot.  Yet.  That's a goal she's working towards.  (She only has a 15-minute practice, once/week.)

If skaters go to camps, clinics or workshops, those coaches will have them do drills that challenge them position-wise.  "Watch what I learned in camp - I can grab my skating foot!"  Why should those coaches look like heroes for making spins or jumps more interesting when the regular coach can do the same?  By challenging them weekly, my skaters shine when they go to a camp because they're not flustered and they can stretch their skills even further with confidence.

[JSM]

This has always been my thought, I need to get the basic positions working first and then worry about variations, but I suppose the thought was at what point do you declare the basic position working and move on to trying new things. I don't tend to mess around with too many things without my coach suggesting it first (there's too much to practice to spend too long on playtime), but I know the kids start messing around with things a lot earlier, but they also learn things a lot quicker. If you asked me to try some sort of moves in the field exercise, I'd have a go without thinking, but trying a spin variation has somehow been in a different category in my head. I'm just now wondering whether I should be messing around with these things at an earlier stage. Is there any reason why I try camel-sit despite my camel not being 100% reliable, but I don't try a catch-foot camel other than the coach asked me one time to try a camel-sit?

That's a good point, sometimes fooling around can get real results. 

I have tried a bit on my own to do some variations that I know (not many, granted).  The "broken leg" variation (is that even the technical term?) I can sort of do, but again, it's not low enough to count.  I can't do a "cannonball" or twist or anything, when I try the twist on my own I wind up on the ice.  But I'll keep trying!

Is there a list of variations, perhaps with pictures, that I can see?  I consider myself a skater but I'm clearly behind on my skating knowledge!

Also, the catch foot on a camel is a variation?  AWESOME.  I can actually do that (most of the time...).  I'm so glad to know, thank you!

[fsk8r]

Is there a list of variations, perhaps with pictures, that I can see?  I consider myself a skater but I'm clearly behind on my skating knowledge!

That would be most useful as some of the terminology seems to vary rink to rink.

I know what a broken leg sit spin looks like, but I don't really know what a cannonball is, or clamshell, although I probably would recognise them to see them.

[Sk8tmum]

There are lists, descriptions, and a bunch of videos here:

http://www.sk8stuff.com/m_recognize.htm

Other than that, my kid hunts on Youtube for "good spinners" and imitates them. 

[hopskipjump]

While they don't always have videos, wiki does have photos.

[Doubletoe]

If skaters go to camps, clinics or workshops, those coaches will have them do drills that challenge them position-wise.  "Watch what I learned in camp - I can grab my skating foot!"  Why should those coaches look like heroes for making spins or jumps more interesting when the regular coach can do the same?

I agree!  I just assumed I wasn't able to do any of those difficult variations and my coach never tried to teach them to me.  Then I went to a skate camp and we had a class on spin variations, where 3 elite skaters showed us how to do several spin variations.  I didn't have much luck with most of them, but after just a few tries, I almost had the pancake spin.  I kept working on it after I got home, and a few months later I had it down well enough to put it in my program and get credit for it!