Moves in the Field

[turnip]

I was wondering if there's a link to all the required elements for MiF tests? I've found freestyle ones, but never moves. Being in the UK, it's purely a matter of interest!

If anyone is remotely interest, the elements for all Skate UK and NISA level tests are on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Ice_Skating_Association

[Clarice]

The USFS Moves in the Field tests, including patterns, can all be found in the Rule Book, which is on line at www.usfigureskating.org.  Click on "Technical Info", then "Rule Book" on the drop-down menu, then "Test Book".

[Isk8NYC]

The USFS Moves in the Field tests, including patterns, can all be found in the Rule Book, which is on line at www.usfigureskating.org.  Click on "Technical Info", then "Rule Book" on the drop-down menu, then "Test Book".

aka: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Content/201112TestsBook.pdf 
It's a pretty big pdf, though. 

Since many of the Moves tests were revised 9/2010, the USFSA set up a great webpage with all the patterns linked by test, with videos of the new moves to help with the transition: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=42287
The pages weren't linked to the Technical page when the new rulebook came out.

Caveat: the videos are intended to show the patterns in use, not to demonstrate passing standards.

[fsk8r]

And USFS are so nice for making that freely available. NISA charge to buy a book containing the patterns and include a DVD (again demonstrating move and not passing standard). There's nothing freely available for the members to look up the pattern. If you don't buy the book, you have to ask the coaches nicely to see theirs. They all have to have a copy as the seminar is compulsory attendance, and without it you're not allowed to enter any skater for competition (and there's a different seminar to attend to stand at the boards). 

[turnip]

one of my best friends is a coach, last time i was there i watched the dvd with the manual (the dvd isn't that useful on its own as it doesn't have te judges comments or marks). Its good because you can see the difference in the standard of basics as you go higher up

Thanks for the links guys!

[sarahspins]

Since many of the Moves tests were revised 9/2010, the USFSA set up a great webpage with all the patterns linked by test, with videos of the new moves to help with the transition: http://www.usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=42287
The pages weren't linked to the Technical page when the new rulebook came out.

Yes, though unfortunately the changes made to the adult moves THIS year aren't listed there.  They are correct in the tests book, but I wish someone would update the website.

[Isk8NYC]

And USFS are so nice for making that freely available.

I completely agree with you.  The New Moves committee made quite an investment in researching, planning and organizing the implementation.  They took the time and money to record those videos and build the well-thought out webpages with the patterns.

Yes, though unfortunately the changes made to the adult moves THIS year aren't listed there.  They are correct in the tests book, but I wish someone would update the website.

I never said it reflected the current rules and patterns - I was clear in saying those webpages were built for the 2010 new moves implementation and were just a basic pattern guide.  Why would they update it?  The 2010 changes are all there; adding the 2011+ changes would be changing history, so to speak. The link was enough to answer the question of "What do the USFSA Moves patterns look like?" asked upthread.

Frankly, I have no vested interest in lauding or criticizing the USFSA, but those pages (and the adult versions) really are great resources.  Yet, every single time someone mentions those videos, another finds a reason to tear down the USFSA. 

Would I want to see an up-to-date video rulebook with passing standards and common errors demonstrated? Sure.
Would I want to pay for that resource?  Probably - I own the PSA Moves videos and the older ones are better than the new one.
Would an adult skater pay for it?  Probably not - someone would buy one and copy it for others, lol.
For my purposes in expediting student learning, these are fine.  The skaters demonstrate the basic pattern, the correct, current patterns are in the rulebook, and it jump-starts lessons, saving us both time and money.

I doubt they'll ever update that page, but maybe jjane* or someone else could put together a good, passing-standard library of video links and patterns.  That would be really useful for adults and if permission was given to the USFSA, it could be used to update the existing Adult videos that so many have complaints about.


* jjane was mentioned because of her interest in online information gathering and linkage.

[turnip]

Ok question, i'm youtubing the tests to see some of the moves that i don't recognise, on some of them, there seem to be two skaters at once, is this normal?

[Isk8NYC]

On the lower-level tests, yes, they double- or triple-panel the tests.  Two or more skaters, each with their own dedicated judge, can test at the same time, more or less.  Sometimes they test follow-the-leader style, with the prior skater getting a head start.  Other times, they have each skater perform the same pattern, waiting for the prior skater to complete before starting.  For patterns that don't have a risk of collision, such as edges or turns on the hockey lines, the skaters can test at the same time.

[Skittl1321]

I've seen 5 skaters do a pre-pre test at once, and they collided during edges on the hockey lines.  The judges allowed them both to restart, not counting it as a "reskate".  (That was an INSANE session- the kids just don't have the spacial awareness to have that many people on the ice doing a test, and they would move some kids on to the next move before the other kids finished, so it was just a madhouse!  The only other near collision though was on straight line spirals, since none of the kids really went in straight lines, but more diagonals all over the place)

My PB moves another skater started on the opposite ends for all the moves except the 3-turn pattern (which doesn't exist anymore) where my coach wanted me to start on a certain foot, so I followed him on that one (the judge didn't mind.)  We used opposite sides of the rink for crossovers and waltz 8.


A friend said she nearly lapped the skater who double paneled intermediate with her.  Needless to say, that skater did not pass.  I think nearly being lapped shows a lack of power.  (We wonder if she would have passed if the direct comparison wasn't there.)

[techskater]

Yes, I almost lapped a skater on Intermediate as well.  Somewhat disconcerting when you realize you are rolling up on them...

[jjane45]

I doubt they'll ever update that page, but maybe jjane* or someone else could put together a good, passing-standard library of video links and patterns.  That would be really useful for adults and if permission was given to the USFSA, it could be used to update the existing Adult videos that so many have complaints about.
* jjane was mentioned because of her interest in online information gathering and linkage.

Nearly missed this post. The idea is excellent, we could start a thread specifically for this purpose! Is it technically possible to have a page that members can edit (or maybe embedding a freely editable Google Document through iframe)?

I'd truly love to help but alas, I only tested once and that was semi-official ISI. Definitely not an expert on identifying passing-standard videos...

[fsk8r]

Turnip in case you're not aware NISA used to allow two testers on the ice at the same time. Generally this was for field moves and elements tests. I tested L1 and L3 moves this way. However I believe there was a change of policy last year which said that every skater has the right to test on their own so they have tried to eliminate multiple skaters testing together. I'm not sure if that makes it easier or harder.
You are also not allowed to photo or video a test session so you won't find any NISA tests on youtube. 

[turnip]

Wow, I did not know that!

I did know you can't do photos or videos though, but I see skaters doing field moves (and have attempted levels 1-3, level 1 is close to test standard) all the time at the rink, so not so much of an issue. Plus, if I wanted to, I could borrow the DVD off my coach :-)

I think I'd rather test without anyone else on the ice. Eliminates the fear of colliding with a small child, especially since most of them don't give way to anyone anyway, never mind if they were being tested! Plus, I'd probably end up worrying that they were better than me, even though I may well be at a passing standard too. Also, the waiting and taking in turns (the UK figure 8 crossover pattern is generall done in the centre ice), would mean more standing around being cold and nervous!

But watching the pre-pre moves made me wanna attempt a waltz eight! Never really heard of it except on online forums, but it could be good for making me hold the edge in my three turns

[Skittl1321]

Nearly missed this post. The idea is excellent, we could start a thread specifically for this purpose! Is it technically possible to have a page that members can edit (or maybe embedding a freely editable Google Document through iframe)?

I've always posted my moves test on youtube, as I also trolled youtube watching to see what other adults looked like for these moves taking the test (so different from practice).  The problem is -passing standard varies.  What passes in one area may not in another.  And this is an ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY.  Judges need to be better trained so we aren't trying to hit a moving target!  (Also knowing what makes something .1, .2, .3 above passing would be helpful if you are trying to make up for a poor move.  Of course, I am doubtful whether the judges actually know that or make it up as they go along...)

[fsk8r]

Wow, I did not know that!

I did know you can't do photos or videos though, but I see skaters doing field moves (and have attempted levels 1-3, level 1 is close to test standard) all the time at the rink, so not so much of an issue. Plus, if I wanted to, I could borrow the DVD off my coach :-)

I think I'd rather test without anyone else on the ice. Eliminates the fear of colliding with a small child, especially since most of them don't give way to anyone anyway, never mind if they were being tested! Plus, I'd probably end up worrying that they were better than me, even though I may well be at a passing standard too. Also, the waiting and taking in turns (the UK figure 8 crossover pattern is generall done in the centre ice), would mean more standing around being cold and nervous!

The judges were very good at preventing small child collisions on tests. It was however a bit embarassing when I started my L3 test ahead of the kid and the kid lapped me! I passed with no problem but it highlighted a speed difference to me.
I wouldn't worry about watching the higher level tests too soon. It's worth seeing a test session before your first one, but after that you'll be watching the tests higher than yours when you're at the session. There's a lot of hanging around waiting and you're not nervous for all of it. Depending on when the test session is, a lot of skaters wait to the end to give moral support. (And to spy on what the jduges are looking for at higher levels).
Good luck in getting ready for your test.

[turnip]

Thanks! I have watched the whole field moves dvd, but some of the higher level stuff is things i've never even attempted in isolation, so even with the manual, it doesn't make that much sense to me.

So far I've watched some dance tests, but never actually ones i'm likely to do (I'm not a dancer lol!). It's hard getting to work in time aftr early morning tests, so cant' really justify it unless its my own test!

[fsk8r]

So far I've watched some dance tests, but never actually ones i'm likely to do (I'm not a dancer lol!). It's hard getting to work in time aftr early morning tests, so cant' really justify it unless its my own test!

I wouldn't worry if you don't get to see one first. Your coach will be good at explaining what happens and talking you through it. And the most important thing to remember is that it's just a nice opportunity to skate without anyone getting in the way.

[techskater]

The problem is -passing standard varies.  What passes in one area may not in another.  And this is an ABSOLUTE TRAVESTY.  Judges need to be better trained so we aren't trying to hit a moving target!  (Also knowing what makes something .1, .2, .3 above passing would be helpful if you are trying to make up for a poor move.  Of course, I am doubtful whether the judges actually know that or make it up as they go along...)

Every judge I've ever talked to knows what he/she is looking for on a move and the test overall and what they consider to be above passing standard.  While not all of them are in absolute agreement as to what their particular hot button is, that's why you get three judges on a panel once you get past the first couple.  There are some judges that are looking for speed and power, some that are looking for depth and quality of edge, and some that are looking for body line and carriage as their "must haves".  Basically, ask your coach to schedule a critique and talk to the judge giving the critique in detail and you can learn a lot about their philosophy about passing standard.  They aren't making it up as they go along...
On the other hand, since the latest changes, people aren't stepping up yet in quality at the higher levels tests, so I am seeing a lot retries in my area.  The judges have some "non-negotiables" with regard to the twizzles in Intermediate and Novice and the loops at Novice and higher that the coaches just aren't teaching or skaters just aren't "getting".

[Skittl1321]

Every judge I've ever talked to knows what he/she is looking for on a move and the test overall and what they consider to be above passing standard.  While not all of them are in absolute agreement as to what their particular hot button is, that's why you get three judges on a panel once you get past the first couple.  There are some judges that are looking for speed and power, some that are looking for depth and quality of edge, and some that are looking for body line and carriage as their "must haves".  Basically, ask your coach to schedule a critique and talk to the judge giving the critique in detail and you can learn a lot about their philosophy about passing standard.  They aren't making it up as they go along...

If there is an actual judging standard- they should all be looking for the SAME thing.  It shouldn't be a "depends on which judge you get".  They shouldn't judge to personal preference, they should judge to the standard set by the governing body.  This is my major issue with these tests.  There is some "idea" of what passing is, but it is a moving target. 

Judge's critiques don't exist in this area.  All judges come in from out of state (I think we have 3- and they aren't very active), so you never know which judge will be at a specific test/competition (sometimes they don't even know until last minute) and I've never heard of anyone willing to pay airfare to have a judge give their opinion, especially since apparently it is just an opinion, as every judge has a different standard...

[fsk8r]

The trouble with skating is that it's not black and white. It's not a math exam where the answer is right or wrong. It's a subjective sport and therefore there is going to be different opinions. Take two skaters doing forward outside edges. One has powerful edges but poor carriage, the other has good carriage but lacks power. What weighs more highly than the other? And how do you balance these two factors into a passing standard? I actually admire judges as it's a really hard thing to do.
I helped judge an artistic competition and it's really difficult to tell which is better between two skaters who each have their own strengths and weaknesses. To then do that at a test scenario where you're upholding a somewhat mythical standard (there is no such thing as an average pre-pre skater) is actually a really tough thing. So they are going to each have their own preferred biases.

[Sk8Dreams]

There are always going to be differences among judges, which is why all the tests except the lowest require more than one judge. The thing I look at in judges is consistency.  Some judges have reputations as being tough, and others as being easier; and that's fine with me.  I hate going to a test session and seeing the judges pass skater A, whom I think should obviously get a retry, and then give a retry to skater B, who is clearly borderline, at worst.  I'm a coach and saw this scenario recently, along with another coach, so I know I wasn't alone in my assessment.  The best thing I can say about it is that skater B arrived too late to see skater A's test, which saved her a lot of agita. 

[techskater]

Agreed.  Also, it can depend on the "mood" of the test session.  If you go to a test session where there are a lot of really good tests to start that are obviously passing, a borderline test can pass because the judges are in a "passing mood".  It's because, as several of us have stated, there are no "average" skaters at a given level - each has strengths and weaknesses.