Using the harness to learn jumps

momosam · June 17, 2011, 03:46:24 PM

My dd is still struggling to get consistent on her double sal, toe, and loop jumps. She is being taught the warm ups and such into them but is never, or hardly ever put in the jump harness by her coach. It seems like the other coaches at our rink have their skaters in the harness all the time. How important do you think using the harness is in teaching these jumps? She has been working on these doubles for 2 1/2 years and still doesn't have them yet.

hopskipjump · June 17, 2011, 04:10:39 PM

My daughter's coach has never used the harness with dd. She said it wasn't necessary because dd has confidence when doing jumps. I think for a child who is fearful jumping a harness may help - esp if they have been injured jumping and feel like they need a little more security.

I don't see many coaches using the harness at the rinks we use.

FigureSpins · June 17, 2011, 04:45:37 PM

I attended a pole harness session at the PSA Conference and a major concern of using harnesses is that the skaters don't believe that they can really do the jump themselves. There's a confidence issue, where they think the coach is really helping them and they're not ready. The presenter gave several different stages and things to use in "weaning" a skater off the harness. I know several skaters who went through growth spurts and struggled with their doubles off the harness.

For kids with poor technique, it rarely helps anything. They'll just continue to use their poor technique on or off the harness. If they do manage to get a few good attempts on-harness, it rarely makes a different off-harness right away. They revert to their incorrect muscle memory and it takes a lot of time to overcome that, so putting on the harness is a time-waster.

I have one student (M) who is a firecracker: she loves to skate and she can jump really well. I love teaching her because she really tries hard and she practices, so progress is very good.

Her lesson partner (E) was doing a school project on skating and wanted to include video of a skater learning jumps in the harness. We had been working on Loop jumps together, so I had both girls try the Loop with, and without, the harness. Both landed BIG loops on the harness with no problem and we all cheered. Off the harness, M landed two small loops jumps but her partner two-footed her attempts or didn't really get all the way around. It was as if a switch had turned on in M's head and she understood the down-up-down rhythm.

A week later, M had a private lesson with me while her grandparents were at the rink. She asked me if I would put her on the harness for her Loop jump so her grandparents could watch. I looked at her, smiled, and said "Sure, but first do a few loops off the harness so that you warm them up well." She then proceeded to land three loops in a row on her own, effortlessly. How could I refuse her a few jumps in the harness after that challenge? I even let the bar hit her in the head on the last two so she KNEW I wasn't helping her, lol.

Younger kids LOVE to be on the harness and will ask for a harness lesson all the time. I think there's something about it that makes them feel like they're in the spotlight or that they can really "go for it."

You said your daughter is landing these jumps inconsistently. To me, that's a strength and practice issue, not something that the harness can solve. I don't think it's worth asking the coach why she doesn't use the harness as much as other coaches - every coach is different and every skater is different. I know some coaches have told me that they can't put some of their taller/heavier students on the harness because they themselves aren't strong enough to keep it in control. One sent a skater to a jump coach who was able to manage the harness and used it quite successfully to overcome the problems.

A better thing to ask is what your daughter can do to help make these jumps solid. Would a few extra lessons with a jump coach help? Does she need off-ice training or core strength/conditioning? What about a summer camp or clinic? Is she getting enough on-ice practice? Does she do off-ice jump classes? (Clarification: Those are questions for your daughter and her coach, not for you to answer for me.)

Sk8tmum · June 17, 2011, 09:45:03 PM

Harnesses can be good if a coach knows how to use them properly: For the skater who is working on 'feeling' the rotations in the air, etc. It should be a gentle assist on landing, not a whole-sale "hold'em'up" type thing. It can be a helpful confidence builder, or a "crutch"- it's like training wheels on a bike = you get your balance with them, then take them off ... the problem is the kid who is using the training wheels FOR the balance, and doesn't have it without them, so, when they come off ... they haven't learned anything except to rely on having that balancing thing.

Because straight line harnesses are "artificial" - who takes off like THAT! - they don't help with jump entries or exits out. A pole harness, with a trained operator, is good - they are able to adjust the support and landing, can set it up with a real jump entry, and, because they are right beside the skater, they can correct and observe. A good pole harness operator can "jump" a 6'2" skater into a triple axel ... that's how little actual "lifting" is done.

Our pole harness guy is a specialist who comes in by request, and he's excellent. There is another one who is trying to learn how to use one ... who is basically fairly ineffective ... as he simply jerks them off their feet for takeoff, then, thunks them down on landing. Our coach is an expert on using the straight line harness, and does it with effect where necessary, not as a regular thing: the jump technique is taught properly, then, the skater is "moved up" the level to feeling the additional rotation with the harness; the skater is expected to hold the landing with only minimal assist from the coach, otherwise, the jump isn't ready to go in the harness. If it helps in perspective: I've seen her small 5 foot height jump a 6'1" skater into a triple axel on the harness with no problem at all ... and we're looking at someone who, well, you're not 25 years old when you've been coaching for 40 years - so you can imagine how little "lifting" or "holding" she's doing.

Lots of coaches use the harness as a "fun way" to keep kids engaged, and, frankly, it's of little jump technique benefit. Some kids take years to get doubles; it can be caused by a variety of factors, and can be jump technique, balance and coordination issues, skate issues, growth spurts ... etc etc etc. A harness is just a helpful aid in some situations, certainly not a cure-all ... I like FigureSpins' suggestions ... she's absolutely right ...

FigureSpins · June 17, 2011, 09:56:31 PM

I think that, for singles, the overhead harness is a good tool because they DO have to straighten out their entry edge and stay in checked position. I agree with you about doubles and triples - they require more edging, speed and distance. Trying to stay under the line is a challenge when you're moving that fast.

OT: Sk8tmum, I like your location. *chuckles*

isakswings · June 18, 2011, 03:02:20 AM

Quote from: momosam on June 17, 2011, 03:46:24 PM
My dd is still struggling to get consistent on her double sal, toe, and loop jumps. She is being taught the warm ups and such into them but is never, or hardly ever put in the jump harness by her coach. It seems like the other coaches at our rink have their skaters in the harness all the time. How important do you think using the harness is in teaching these jumps? She has been working on these doubles for 2 1/2 years and still doesn't have them yet.

It depends on the skater. My daughter has rarely used the harness. Honestly, the biggest reason her coach doesn't use it for dd is because dd has used it as a crutch before. Her axel comes and goes. A few months back, dd was having a particularly hard time with her axel and coach was working with her on it. Coach put dd in the harness and dd landed beautiful axels... several times in fact. She landed them on her own and coach said she did nothing to help dd land them. Dd got off the harness and couldn't land them! For whatever reason, the harness made her feel more secure. Since then, her coach rarely puts her in the harness. Dd does better learning on her own...otherwise the harness becomes a crutch!

momosam · June 18, 2011, 09:21:39 AM

Thanks so much for all of your replies. She is taking a core strength/conditioning class and an off ice jumps class for the first time this summer. She started the jumps last week and will start the strength training class on Monday. Each class is once a week. I am very interested to see how she improves by the end of the summer. Our rink doesn't have these types of classes so she is taking these at different facilities.

I do think her technique is also part of the problem. Also, a little bit of fear is in there. She skates about 5 hours a week during the school year and about 6-10, sometimes more , over the summer.

twokidsskatemom · June 18, 2011, 03:49:23 PM

It also goes back to the idea that doubles REALLY take a long time!Serously people get all worked up over my kids got her doubles in...... and then watch them on you tube!Huge difference in working on the them ,landing them cheated, landing them from a standstill or by themselves and then landing them in a program.
Good luck!!

isakswings · June 18, 2011, 10:02:10 PM

Quote from: twokidsskatemom on June 18, 2011, 03:49:23 PM
It also goes back to the idea that doubles REALLY take a long time!Serously people get all worked up over my kids got her doubles in...... and then watch them on you tube!Huge difference in working on the them ,landing them cheated, landing them from a standstill or by themselves and then landing them in a program.
Good luck!!

I think this holds true for all jumps from the axel on! Landing an axel and then landing it while moving and in a program are so very different!

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Using the harness to learn jumps