Too much too soon???

[skatingmum2]

My 8 year old (boy) has been invited to a group skating program which has 6 to 8 hours on-ice and 6 hours off ice training per week. He's loving it so far although we have strategically missed the odd session while he adjusts to this new program. We've been approached by the head coach to request he does an extra 2 hours (one on and one off ice) in a boys only group (4 or 5 boys) working on boy stuff. Son is thrilled to bits with this idea and can't wait for this to begin (slight fuss this evening that he wasn't taken there tonight.... My partner isn't thrilled - son was in a development squad for tennis (which my son says he prefers less) - which costs way less etc. etc.
We've had to cut down on this a great deal - although the tennis coach isn't too upset as he reckons as long as he does tennis a couple of times a week (30 mintues per time) it will be fine as he has good eye for the ball and the main things son needs to improve are to do with core stability and core strength which skating will give him - and maybe he'll change his mind and switch to tennis. He's had to skip tennis competitions for skating (his choice) but has a bad reputation for starting conversations with opponents in the middle of a game because he gets bored.

My son looks like quite a clumsy little kid on the ice (especially compared to girls) although is just about landing some axels and double loops (I have no idea on the quality).  He currently loves the skating - he apparantly gave a presentation in English at school about it and the teacher thought it was so great he's been selected to present it to the head teacher.(He was the only boy who not only described what he could do but what he was hoping to do as well etc.)

I was looking at him in the bath tonight thinking - well - ribs a bit more prominent than I'd like - hardly an ounce of fat on him. Just wondering - how much is too much?

[hopskipjump]

I let dd decide.  I have offered another session a week and she declines it.  I have to respect her wish, I don't want to "push her".  She already does two other sports (down from 3 at her request).  Does he look forward to skating and off ice?   Is he excited and doesn't complain?  Is he eating well and sleeping well?  Is he okay with school work?  Does he have ample time to be creative, read and rest?  Is he missing things like dinner with his family and time with friends?  Is he in pain? Those are my thoughts with dd.

[Skittl1321]

Based on the kids at our rink, as long as he still thinks it is fun, that sounds good for the summer, but too much for the school year.

Might need to start feeding him like an athlete though!

[Sk8tmum]

If you get a chance for your son to skate with boys, take it and run with it. The hardest thing for boys is finding other boys to skate with; the ones that do find a support group tend to stay with the sport and support each other.  If he loves it ... run with it.  Don't worry about his looking "clumsy" compared with the girls; this is normal, and part of why you do want him on the ice with other boys so that he can see how "boys" skate and learn vs. how girls skate and learn.

At 8, he should be exploring different sports, so, yes, I would keep up with the tennis.

Don't worry about the ribs ... if he's running around, is active, is energetic, is healthy, and is sleeping properly, you should be fine.  But, yes, you do need to feed him properly ... it's a great time to start teaching about the nutrition that an athlete needs while he's starting out in sports. 

However, if he complains that he's "skating too much" - listen to him ... the hours you are doing are really a lot for an 8 year old at his level (IMHO).  10 hours a week for an 8 year old is quite a bit, particularly with the 6 hours of off-ice added. Work with the coaches to make sure that he's enjoying it and is not overwhelmed; if they are truly committed to helping him involve himself in the sport, they'll work with you to ensure he's not overworked, bored, etc, and not skating too much! It's supposed to be fun at 8 ... actually, life is supposed to be fun at 8

[jjane45]

If you get a chance for your son to skate with boys, take it and run with it.

LOL too true!!

[Schmeck]

However, if he complains that he's "skating too much" - listen to him ... the hours you are doing are really a lot for an 8 year old at his level (IMHO).  10 hours a week for an 8 year old is quite a bit, particularly with the 6 hours of off-ice added. Work with the coaches to make sure that he's enjoying it and is not overwhelmed; if they are truly committed to helping him involve himself in the sport, they'll work with you to ensure he's not overworked, bored, etc, and not skating too much! It's supposed to be fun at 8 ... actually, life is supposed to be fun at 8

8-10 hours seems just about right to me - my oldest daughter,at age 8, was spending at least that many hours at the gym when she was doing gymnastics.  When she quit, at age 12, she was up to 20+ hours.

I do agree that if he starts complaining about going, then it's time to readjust the hours, etc.  It is definitely supposed to be fun!

[sk8dsmom]

I think 8 - 10 hours plus off ice is excessive IMHO.  I don't know where you are, but Skate Canada does have an LTAD model that indicates that the skater at this skill level (if I recall correctly -feel free to correct me if I'm wrong anyone) should be doing 4 - 5 times per week on ice sessions.

My DS is 9 1/2 yrs old and on a weekly basis: On Ice 4.5 hrs (will likely go up to 5 - 6 hrs next season), Off Ice 1 - 1.5 hrs (depending if we get him there on time or not).  On Ice includes freeskate / dance / spins / skills / group lessons.  During the competition season, we add as required an additional 2 hrs per week to fine tune his solo / techniques.  Generally we try not to do this unless there's a major competition and then it'll be for the 2 or 3 weeks leading up to it.
On top of this he has: swimming 45 min's, and gymnastics (1 hr this past fall, 2 hrs in spring).   He does these for enjoyment as well as for conditioning and keeping up his flexibility.

There have been seminars here and there that he's done through the past season that are not included in the times above including all boys as well.  DS is the only competitive boy (freeskate) in our club.

DS has all his non-axel doubles (got them all in under 1.5 yrs including axel) if you need a point of reference to where your DS development is.

Don't forget they are kids after all and need to have downtime from 'regularly scheduled activities' and have time for homework , social time w/friends.  Proper nutrition and rest/sleep is very important.  I believe that it's the responsibility as the parent when to say "no" to the coach and not to have them 'force' the time requirements on you.

[Sk8tmum]

In addition to the ^^^ above: the LTAD model also indicates that boys lag two years behind girls at this stage; thus, an 8 year old boy and and an 8 year old girl are not the equivalent in terms of development. 

[Schmeck]

There is social time in the actual skating - it's a group skating program, and he's with 4-5 other boys, according to the OP.  Sounds like a great thing for him to do!  It sounds a lot like my daughter's gymnastics - group time, with some added private time once a week to tweak things.  It doesn't sound like he's going all out on the ice for the entire time.

[hopskipjump]

We are looking at 9 on the ice and 7 off the ice.  I still think a parent's job is balance.  He is the thing to watch.

Group lessons are not social time.  It's time to listen and follow directions.  Yes pleasantries are exchanged, but it is not really social time.  An ice session of playing with friends is social time.  No directions from parents or coaches, just play.  Kids don't get enough play with friends.  I know for dd it has to be  scheduled with a friend's parent and then we figure out what to do (having a glass of wine while kids run wild is ideal). 

[skatingmum2]

Thanks for replies.

Athlete diet? Not sure what that is. DS is the sort of child who easily forgets to eat and I'm the one who has to remember to feed him. Friends who have had him for the day remark how he never asks for food and one of them only remembered he hadn't eaten all day (he refused lunch) when he became tearful and complained about a tummy ache at 5pm! I don't tend to ask him if he wants to eat - I put food in front of him.

He's a great fruit eater(thank goodness for citrus fruits and banana's) , but we are topping up with honey loops (breakfast cereal), sweets and sports drinks in addition to his normal diet. He was told not to bring anything with sugar to the rink and they're not allowed sports drinks ice-side or during off-ice - but - if I see him flagging I don't hesitate to give him something with sugar. (His paed has noted his weight has always been a quartile lower than his height which is just his build but reckon he would lose quite easily from this weight if we're not careful).

He is very energetic and lively - the good side of the skating is that he is sitting stiller in class and sleeping more at night. However, we haven't as yet done all the "required" sessions just because I've thought they were too much. Twice a week it is meant to be before and after school and given that school is busy and he plays running around games at break times I decided it was too much. Paid him this evening (yes - it cost me money) a bribe so he would go out with friends and miss the evening skating session.

Q for Sk8dsmum - in the Canadian program are they mostly group lessons? I do wonder if sometimes we do way too much group time which is not necessarily great quality but a mega amount of ice time.

Boys group luckily not starting for another week. DS is disappointed but - I do worry about another evening at the rink and the impact on running a household and trying to also have family time.

My 12 year old daughter thinks its really unfair he is in this group - she didn't start skating until after age 8 and while she has 4 consistent doubles (double lutz not that consistent yet) has never been chosen for any special groups or given these opportunities.

[sk8dsmom]

Our club is generally 1 hour sessions for the level your DS is at  (& all the way up) with 15 min group lesson (spins, skills, stroking or edge development) either at the beginning or end of the hour and the remainder is free time for the skater to do freeskate, dance, skills, etc.. on their own generally.  All skaters at this level must have a private coach and most have a lesson each session but not always depending on the arrangements with their coach.

At the level previous is 45 min's group lesson (used to be 30 min's group, 15 min free time).

DS is works with 4 coaches at the moment (base, secondary, dance, spins/skills) so on some sessions he may have 1 to 3 lessons but that only usually happens 2 of the 4 sessions he's on.  But when he's out there on his own, he's working his butt off -doesn't socialize but gets along with all the girls out there.  It does take some time for the kids to get to this level of maturity and focus.  He's gotten rewarded for his hard work through his competition results & testing this season.

If your DS is serious about skating, his eating habits needs to be helped along -proper proteins are needed whether it be meat or meat alternatives along with carbs.  Granola bars are great snacks either before or after.  In general if anyone is exercising > 1 hr needs to have an sports drink (no caffeine / energy type drinks though) -that being said, they are on the sweet side so we cut it with water (at least 1/3 to 2/3 water up to 1/2 to 1/2) rarely does he get it full strength.  DS uses a reusable water bottle that we wash daily (hint hint -you can't see what's in it).   You may want to talk to your paed about nutrition or a dietitician to help you along.

Tell your DD that in North America in general that there has been a decline in boys continuing on in figure skating once they hit the 10 - 14 age range. Since there are so few boys as it is, it becomes very noticeable when you look at the senior levels and see how few there generally are.  It is not only your club -you are lucky there are that many boys there.  It is important for the boys to get to know each other and it brings out their 'competitive' edge I'll do this / that better and pushes them do to better.  My DS in this past year finally was able to compete with similar skill levelled boys (albeit 12 yrs old) and they kept pushing each other to do better and it was so rewarding to see the improvement in all of them.  Boys will stick together even in competition and cheer each other on, while most girls don't even talk to their competitors.  They'll step it up without realizing it when they are working together.

Male role model mentoring is very important and it doesn't have to be in figure skating.  DS does gymnastics with an all boys group and has had competitive boys with coaching certification take their class occasionally is absolutely wonderful as they automatically 'step up' the game.

[Sk8tmum]

In terms of Canadian programming: it depends from club to club.  My DS started with group lessons in LTS (Canskate); but, was privately coached in addition even then.  At the pre-pre stage, there were some (grudging) group lessons (that's axel, working on first double) - but, he was quickly pulled into strictly private for a number of reasons, primarily our preference to have him with a single coach who would control his progress. 

In some clubs, small groups are used as part of the program.  It depends on the structure, however, competitive skaters do have a base coach who monitors an controls.

He currently has a base coach, a choreo, a dance coach, a transitions/footwork coach, and a spins coach.  The axel and doubles have come and gone with puberty and growth spurts, and we do have some triples, and, we are just getting past that 10 to 14 year old age spot. However, he is increasingly a rarity. The majority of boys he started with have quit, and we are seeing more and more dropping every year. Growth spurts are brutal on boys:  the 6 inches of height in a year, and the changing body dimensions, plus, what I am seeing more and more of, back and hip and knee damage from overtraining the adolescent body (boys DO like to jump!) which are meaning that they have to quit for health reasons. He has stuck it out due to sheer stubbornness, a love to skate, and a coach who kicks his butt on a regular basis.  It's hard being the only boy on the ice ... and at competitions ... etc etc etc. Our solution has been to ensure that he has a "guy" team sport to do along with skating - that way he gets his fix of sweaty, grimy, grubbly male testosterone-laden antics and behaviours ... in other words, a sport that requires a jock strap instead of a dance belt!

Now, the diet your kid has.  I am seeing a lot of sugar in it - the breakfast, the sports drink, etc, most of which are empty calories.  That's not a good diet to skate on. You need protein, and complex carbohydrates. There is a reason why they are telling you not to bring sweets to the rink: they are not suitable for a sport that requires sustained energy.  If his weight is a problem, simple sugars won't do it - they'll just take away his appetite for good food, and he'll have a sugar spike and crash.  If you are looking for something "sweet" that is healthy, feed him chocolate milk: this is now considered a sport-healthy additive to training, and it endorsed by sport nutrionists (for some reason, it reduces lactic acid and speeds muscle recovery). I'd also cut back on the citrus fruits: these are high in sugar.  Bananas are great, they are potassium laden ... so, those are a great quick snack. Granola bars we steer clear of: lots of sugar, and they also cling to the teeth and cause cavities - ! But, that being said, if you look carefully, you will find some healthy granola bars, they're just hard to find among the chocolate covered ones with the marshmallows that are in the grocery aisle!  We keep "emergency" protein drinks in the bag for between skating snacks, use a lot of peanut butter and real whole-grain bread, nuts, lean meats, cheese, fish, lower-glycemic fruits, omega-3 supplements, vegetables, whole-grain pastas (not white), and tons and tons of red meat (sorry, but, we do have a high protein diet going on).  If we fed him a sugary snack ... then, the hunger is gone for the stuff that he needs to train on.  And yes, we do do ice cream and that as a treat ... and yes, he is a kid who drops weight overnight, so I know about the skinny boy syndrome. However, once we essentially dropped simple sugar from his diet ... we were better able to pack on some muscle mass and healthy weight.

At eight, you are skating too much, as far as I can see, especially for a boy, and especially at his level.  You will be far happier with having less skating, which is more focussed, and letting him be "hungry" for more instead of getting too much. 

We have also been that route of the gender-opportunity jealousy. Learn to live with it. When my DD is in a flight with 35 girls, and he's in a flight with 3 boys (HEY! come last and get a medal!) plus gets to see special seminars, features at carnivals, etc etc etc ... it's not fair, but, it's a reality of being a guy. Doesn't mean my kid is uniquely talented - it just comes from being a guy instead of a girl, and in a sport with a shortage of boys - they get targetted for development, which is good/bad, as it can also lead to them burning out earlier ... but, that's another debate.

[skatingmum2]

Feel so much better about the sessions we miss having spoken to you guys. The other boy in DS's group (also does 8 on ice, 6 off ice, some additional club sessions and 2 one hour lessons and I was feeling really guilty that we have skipped 2 on-ice and 1 off-ice each week so far and haven't sorted any regular private lessons.

DS's skating is nearly all small group lesson based - group of 4 girls and one other boy his age. They do a mix of skills/edges/spins and jumps with a variety of coaches - and yes - he is a jump fanatic through and through.  I haven't done regular private lessons yet - partly because we are at the rink so much already. (The boys only class they are proposing to start he would be just about the strongest skater and there would be some playing as part of the lesson - probably some chasing games).

Now chocolate (soya) milk is something he'd happily drink (cow milk allergy)! Will definately push the proteins more. I guess I've always thought about concentrated sugars as something for a child with a ridiculously small appetite but hadn't thought of them in terms of suppressing appetite for other foods. DS has always been really fatty food averse  - prefers dry toast etc. I do think I also need to send more food to school with him and maybe ask the teachers not to let him play outside until eating enough because that is also one of the reasons he has so little food and comes out of school needing a quick sugar fix. (He is always in a rush to get outside at school - playing so much more important than eating).

He has his next paeds checkup in October  - they do watch his weight closely but are happy for him to be one quartile lower in weight as this is his build - there have been times when it was lower - when he was little he was on an extra high calorie forumla to help gain weight.