test track

[Sierra]

Okay, so far we have:

. Speed with continuous flow
. Carriage/Posture with Extension
. Jumps which have clean entries/landing and are fully rotated
. Spins that are strong and fast with the correct number of revolutions
. Field Moves that connect everything together seamlessly
. Artistry
. Choreography
. Music interpretation

What else is part of the fruit basket?

there seems to be some sort of emphasis on carriage/posture and the whole stretching the free leg type of thing.
I'd also add flow. There's no point in skating fast if you've got to slow down to do the waltz jump in your program.

This is making me realize that I'm missing some fruit. Is it possible to have negative fruit?

But it isn't my fault I can't interpret music. My coach has to hold back laughter when I try.

Think I'll add Presentation. Is the skater presenting the program to the judges? Smiling? Bows? Looks happy? Or does she wince after a mistake and stare at the ice, desperate for it to be over?
Says the girl who fell at the end of her program and, whilst sitting on the ice, quickly threw her arms into finishing pose and smiled hugely at the judges.

[FigureSpins]

Updated list:

. Presentation
. Speed with continuous flow
. Carriage/Posture with Extension
. Jumps which have clean entries/landing and are fully rotated
. Spins that are strong and fast with the correct number of revolutions
. Field Moves that connect everything together seamlessly
. Artistry
. Choreography and Correctness (no "spiders" - allowed elements only)
. Music interpretation

What else is part of the fruit basket?

[Sk8tmum]

All of these factors you list seem to be basically a summation of what is measured in the PCS score for those skating under points.  But, well.

I would also add:  Not including invalid or illegal elements.  That would be sort of like having a spider crawling out of your basket of fruit ... makes no-one want to reach in and sample.

As another thought: in 6.0, the first skater is the reference skater. Thus, that skater is the one that everyone else is ranked against.  In a huge flight ... which can happen ... it is difficult to rank, say, the 15th skater against that reference skater. So, in this instance, the judge is overwhelmed by this huge display of various types of fruit ... and may not be able to make the most perfect choice, and end up with the slightly overripe pear when the perfectly formed plum s/he saw on an earlier stand would actually have been better ...

BTW: my kid always places significantly higher under points than under OBO as the requirement to formally measure and account for makes the judges focus on her skills, transitions, choreo ...

[FigureSpins]

Okay, added the "correctness" to choreography.

[Schmeck]

I had a judge explain 6.0 judging like this: judges want an entire basket of fruit.  When you have large groups, a lot of times you have a skater that offers an apple, a skater that offers a banana, a skater that offers an orange and a skater that offers a grapefruit and it will depend on what fruit the judge likes best where each skater is placed.  When a skater is able to offer a grapefruit AND an apple, that skater does better.  Same for testing - some judges will reward good posture and others are looking for depth of edge and speed.

For testing MITF, the judges are given specific primary and secondary foci, so they have more structure, and should not be favoring something not listed as a focus.  Not sure if they are given foci for freeskate tests?

[jumpingbeansmom]

All of these factors you list seem to be basically a summation of what is measured in the PCS score for those skating under points.  But, well.

I would also add:  Not including invalid or illegal elements.  That would be sort of like having a spider crawling out of your basket of fruit ... makes no-one want to reach in and sample.

As another thought: in 6.0, the first skater is the reference skater. Thus, that skater is the one that everyone else is ranked against.  In a huge flight ... which can happen ... it is difficult to rank, say, the 15th skater against that reference skater. So, in this instance, the judge is overwhelmed by this huge display of various types of fruit ... and may not be able to make the most perfect choice, and end up with the slightly overripe pear when the perfectly formed plum s/he saw on an earlier stand would actually have been better ...

BTW: my kid always places significantly higher under points than under OBO as the requirement to formally measure and account for makes the judges focus on her skills, transitions, choreo ...

I agree, my dd seems so far to have placed more where I and her coaches felt she belonged at IJS

[FigureSpins]

For testing MITF, the judges are given specific primary and secondary foci, so they have more structure, and should not be favoring something not listed as a focus.  Not sure if they are given foci for freeskate tests?

But, we're discussing Test Track competition events that are judged under 6.0, right?  So why are IJS or test evaluations being brought into play - are the judging criteria identical among the three?  (Testing, 6.0 and IJS)

A coach made a comment last summer, stating that judges are "expecting to see" IJS-level skating under 6.0, which is part of the confusion for me - for Test Track and Basic Skills events, there are limitations on the skating elements.  How do you reconcile those diverse expectations?  Are the judges sitting there getting just as confused as we are, applying IJS and test criteria to 6.0 to somehow come up with a number?

I'll let you know next month - either someone put the wrong level event on a skater's exhibition program or choreographed it incorrectly.

Case in point: two skaters do Test Track Pre-Preliminary freeskate.  The competition announcement clearly says "one position spins only." and "only single jumps Flip, Loop, Toe Loop and Salchow."  One skater's program includes two or three Lutzes and a lovely camel-sit-scratch combination spin as the last element.  How do you judge that under 6.0?  There's a .1 .2 deduction per element - can you afford to throw away .3 - .4 .6 - .8 points and let the ordinals fall where they may?

[jumpingbeansmom]

But, we're discussing Test Track competition events that are judged under 6.0, right?  So why are IJS or test evaluations being brought into play - are the judging criteria identical among the three?  (Testing, 6.0 and IJS)

A coach made a comment last summer, stating that judges are "expecting to see" IJS-level skating under 6.0, which is part of the confusion for me - for Test Track and Basic Skills events, there are limitations on the skating elements.  How do you reconcile those diverse expectations?  Are the judges sitting there getting just as confused as we are, applying IJS and test criteria to 6.0 to somehow come up with a number?

I'll let you know next month - either someone put the wrong level event on a skater's exhibition program or choreographed it incorrectly.

Case in point: two skaters do Test Track Pre-Preliminary freeskate.  The competition announcement clearly says "one position spins only." and "only single jumps Flip, Loop, Toe Loop and Salchow."  One skater's program includes two or three Lutzes and a lovely camel-sit-scratch combination spin as the last element.  How do you judge that under 6.0?  There's a .2 deduction per element - can you afford to throw away .6 - .8 points and let the ordinals fall where they may?

I don't get how you deduct in ranking anyway-- deduct from what? there are no scores....

[FigureSpins]

I don't get how you deduct in ranking anyway-- deduct from what? there are no scores....

There are underlying judges' scores (Technical and Presentation) that create the ordinals for 6.0.  It would be better if they actually posted the scores for Basic Skills and Test Track - it's a valuable information tool to be able to see how you fared in numbers.

However, I believe the referee notes any required deductions for illegal elements, time overruns/underruns, etc.
If he/she is on the ball, their deductions are made to every judge's score for the offending skater.

The Test Track outline clearly says there's a deduction for elements that are not permitted.
http://www.usfsa.org/Content/Levels-landscape.pdf

This explanation is for a standard-track 6.0 event, not Test Track or Basic Skills:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=419

Of course, they all skated beautifully and didn't receive any deductions.

[fsk8r]

A coach made a comment last summer, stating that judges are "expecting to see" IJS-level skating under 6.0, which is part of the confusion for me - for Test Track and Basic Skills events, there are limitations on the skating elements.  How do you reconcile those diverse expectations?  Are the judges sitting there getting just as confused as we are, applying IJS and test criteria to 6.0 to somehow come up with a number?

I think what is meant when it is said that judges are expecting to see IJS level skating under 6.0 is that now they've been trained in IJS they are looking at things with that critical eye they use for IJS. So they're mentally awarding GOEs for jumps and spins, counting revolutions on spins and checking whether sit spins are low enough to be text book definition whereas before they might have just expected close enough at the lower competition levels.
This all means that whereas before judge A may have favoured apples in the fruit basket and judge B bananas, they're both now looking at different things than they were before.
I've heard it said that a lot of judges find it difficult to switch back to their old judging technique once they've started judging IJS. This isn't necessarily a bad thing as it means correct technique is emphasised from the beginning and things aren't added to programs because they're "close enough."
Equally test evaluations are important when considering judging as it gives an indication as to what judges will be considering important.

I've never understood the marks from the NISA testing system, but I've read and been told that when you test a free skate program the standard is based on the 6.0 system as there's guidelines as to what mark you should be getting based on your level. Obviously Olympic skaters were working close to 6.0 whereas basic skills might be getting up to the 1.0 end of things. Now how they test a program against a book I've got no idea...  

[jumpingbeansmom]

There are underlying judges' scores (Technical and Presentation) that create the ordinals for 6.0.  It would be better if they actually posted the scores for Basic Skills and Test Track - it's a valuable information tool to be able to see how you fared in numbers.

However, I believe the referee notes any required deductions for illegal elements, time overruns/underruns, etc.

This explanation is for a standard-track 6.0 event, not Test Track or Basic Skills:
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Programs.asp?id=419

Of course, they all skated beautifully and didn't receive any deductions.

I guess if you sandbag enough you can still win doing illegal elements-- honestly, I think illegal elements should be a dq-- that would stop people from doing that

[FigureSpins]

I guess if you sandbag enough you can still win doing illegal elements-- honestly, I think illegal elements should be a dq-- that would stop people from doing that

I don't think there are any disqualifications in figure skating, except for not being on the ice and skating within the time limits and/or skating in a lower level event when you had tested higher.  I don't know that penalizing the skater for a coach's error is fair, but you're right: the penalty needs to be more severe if they want Test Track to be effective.  The rules should apply to everyone.

Now that I look at it, the .1/element penalty is meaningless unless it's a close competition and the referee is watching carefully.  Having those elements in there can assure (if they're well-done) the skater is scored as "the best," which can open enough of a lead to overcome dinky little deductions.

[Sk8tmum]

The deductions can certainly affect the placements in 6.0. They are punitive; the judges award them; and the referee checks to make sure that they are applied. I have certainly seen on more than one occasion parents and skaters scratching their heads over why the skater with NO doubles beat the skaters with doubles ... only to be reminded that, oops, no doubles are allowed in that level ... that's why the element limitations were put in place, to discourage sandbagging and to encourage skaters to move up to where they are able to use those elements. The deductions are significantly severe enough, at least in Canada, that a skater will be significantly affected by the illegal elements.

[fsk8r]

The deductions can certainly affect the placements in 6.0. They are punitive; the judges award them; and the referee checks to make sure that they are applied. I have certainly seen on more than one occasion parents and skaters scratching their heads over why the skater with NO doubles beat the skaters with doubles ... only to be reminded that, oops, no doubles are allowed in that level ... that's why the element limitations were put in place, to discourage sandbagging and to encourage skaters to move up to where they are able to use those elements. The deductions are significantly severe enough, at least in Canada, that a skater will be significantly affected by the illegal elements.

I've heard in the UK that the deduction is 1.0 on the 6.0 system. I don't know whether that's rumour or not, but the coaches pay attention when choreographing programs.

[jumpingbeansmom]

I don't think there are any disqualifications in figure skating, except for not being on the ice and skating within the time limits and/or skating in a lower level event when you had tested higher.  I don't know that penalizing the skater for a coach's error is fair, but you're right: the penalty needs to be more severe if they want Test Track to be effective.  The rules should apply to everyone.

Now that I look at it, the .1/element penalty is meaningless unless it's a close competition and the referee is watching carefully.  Having those elements in there can assure (if they're well-done) the skater is scored as "the best," which can open enough of a lead to overcome dinky little deductions.

Yep...when my older dd was skating test track, there were blatant violations of the rules, and those girls were winning...they clearly belonged in another level. 

[Skittl1321]

At our recent competition there was a girl skating no-test with a flip combo and doing loop-loop.  The referree actually stopped me from announcnig the next skater, to take time to take out the rulebook to make sure the elements were legal.

Sadly, they were and she beat the little girls doing two foot spins and barely-there waltz jumps. Even if she hadn't tested, she should have skated up to pre-pre, those kids still didn't have these sorts of jumps!

I guess her club doesn't test until they have axels, where at our club they seem to enter pre-pre as soon as they can.  No-test is mostly for kids just barely out of basic skills.

[icefrog]

At our recent competition there was a girl skating no-test with a flip combo and doing loop-loop.  The referree actually stopped me from announcnig the next skater, to take time to take out the rulebook to make sure the elements were legal.

Sadly, they were and she beat the little girls doing two foot spins and barely-there waltz jumps. Even if she hadn't tested, she should have skated up to pre-pre, those kids still didn't have these sorts of jumps!

I guess her club doesn't test until they have axels, where at our club they seem to enter pre-pre as soon as they can.  No-test is mostly for kids just barely out of basic skills.

In my area that is a typical no-test program its basically like a pre prepre with kids who haven't landed an axel. The kids with waltz jumps and sals do limited beginner.

[Skittl1321]

No test was the lowest non-LTS level. 

[techskater]

It would be better if they actually posted the scores for Basic Skills and Test Track - it's a valuable information tool to be able to see how you fared in numbers.

However, I believe the referee notes any required deductions for illegal elements, time overruns/underruns, etc.

The comment about fruit was more along the lines of how you get ordinals like 1 and 11 for the same skater in a large group when everyone makes a few mistakes and how unless the skater presents multiple fruits (say awesome skating skills AND spins, Ok jumps, versus awesome jumps that are expected at that level but OK skating and spins and so on...). 

Posting judges' scores from Basic Skills would not be valuable.  I know that I have judged basic skills events on numerous ocasions and I use various numbers for my first skater in order to have enough room to maneouver up or down and not box myself in.  For example, I'll use a 2.5/2.5 for a Basic 6 FS first skater and go up or down from there.  It has no basis to anything other than being a good place to start..I use my first skater as a "median mark"

The referee lets the judges know if deductions are to be taken.  Sometimes, even with a deduction, that skater is just THAT much better.

My comment about testing (in reference to someone's comment that their dd got some above passing and some below passing for the same move depending on the judges) is based upon seeing it in action.  Sometimes if the move is "around" passing standard, good presentation will sway a judge one way and another judge is swayed by speed or depth of edge more. 

[Ellyn]

For testing MITF, the judges are given specific primary and secondary foci, so they have more structure, and should not be favoring something not listed as a focus.  Not sure if they are given foci for freeskate tests?

Actually, with the last changes to the MITF tests, there's no more primary and secondary foci. Something either is a focus for that move or it isn't.

The guidelines for the freeskating tests aren't phrased in terms of foci, because the program is judged as a whole and it's supposed to include all different kinds of fruit.

You can see both the moves and freeskating test forms here: http://usfigureskating.org/Shell.asp?sid=20822

The freeskate test forms list the required elements that must be completed, and also at the top there's a verbal description of the level of quality expected at that test level. Of course, different judges may have different mental matchups of those words and the actual skating.

[Schmeck]

Ellyn, OMG, I love that link!  Thank you so much! 

I did notice that there were two parts to the focus, it's like they just took away the primary and secondary lingo, and strung the foci together?

Anyways, I don't know why I'm so interested in the testing, as my daughter isn't even skating anymore, LOL!  I guess part if it is because we invested so much time and effort into getting the senior MITF done before she graduated high school.  Skating was such a big part of our lives, and I miss it.

[skatingmama]

I found this very interesting. I'm in Canada so our levels are different. My DDs are in Pre-Pre and Prelim, Starskate stream so what levels would they be skating in Test Track? My Pre-Pre skater is doing a Lutz, she does combo jumps like loop-loop, and is working on her lutz-loop. She does a camel/sit and a sit and she hasn't taken any tests to this point, they are not required. She skated her one year, last year in the old Elementary level and by default, had to move up to pre-pre.
My Prelim skater is doing her axle (which she can now almost land!), all of the other single jumps, she's allowed to do a double sal in this level but she hasn't got it yet. Her spins include a flying camel and a change sit. She's taken her prelim freeskate test.

[isakswings]

In my area that is a typical no-test program its basically like a pre prepre with kids who haven't landed an axel. The kids with waltz jumps and sals do limited beginner.

That is how it is around here. There are a few skaters in dd's club who will be skating non-test when the new season starts in June/July. In our competition announcements, it clearly states what elements are allowed and it is the same as pre-pre but no axel. Here, the girl you spoke of was in the right level. Interesting how it varies from area to area. I would think it would be the same...