judging

[singerskates]

and I certainly don't want to challenge anything at ISI!  I just wanted to know if there was any way we could find out what 4 different coaches (between group, camp, and regular) are missing.  We are putting a lot of money into it, I'd like to know what we are doing wrong.

If it were me, I'd leave ISI events and go into USFSA. When your skater gets up to the Juvenile level, she'll finally find out exactly what she's doing and what she's not doing just from the IJS sheets.

Thankfully, I'm Canadian and an adult skater, so we're marked with CPC (the USFSA's IJS' and ISU COP's cousin). Only skaters not entered in StarSkate (Junior Bronze up to Gold), Adult StarSkate and Competitive (Pre-Juvenile to Senior Level) are marked with OBO marking; CanSkate (learn to skate), Pre-Preliminary and Preliminary.

[jumpingbeansmom]

If it were me, I'd leave ISI events and go into USFSA. When your skater gets up to the Juvenile level, she'll finally find out exactly what she's doing and what she's not doing just from the IJS sheets.

Thankfully, I'm Canadian and an adult skater, so we're marked with CPC (the USFSA's IJS' and ISU COP's cousin). Only skaters not entered in StarSkate (Junior Bronze up to Gold), Adult StarSkate and Competitive (Pre-Juvenile to Senior Level) are marked with OBO marking; CanSkate (learn to skate), Pre-Preliminary and Preliminary.

It really was a lightbulb moment for my just turned 10 year old...she gets why she has to try this footwork (and practice until she can do it), why she needs to get her butt down in her spins, not cheat her jumps, have flow on the landings, do x number of spin revolutions and positions...looking at her scores just a few times (which honestly were not bad for her age and level experience) and those of the top girls, really really hit HOME with her and has her more focused in practice.

[FigureSpins]

I don't disagree - IJS is better since you actually "get" what took place and can compare the elements' scores.

However, if the OP's DD is skating in the US at an ISI FS 1 level, her current USFSA level wouldn't be any higher than No Test or Basic Skills Basic 8 / Freeskate 1.  She'd be outskated, even in the Test Track events of a regular competition.  Basic Skills is nice interim solution until the skater gains the skills to test standard-track and be competitive.  As Phoenix points out, Juvenile is the first IJS level in the USFSA.  That's a long way from ISI FS1 - how long would the skater be willing to wait to compete?

You don't see IJS scoring until you get to intermediate Juvenile and that's sort of a flaw in the system.  I don't believe that we NEED IJS at the lowest levels, but the skaters and coaches do need some feedback on the elements and performance.  It would help eliminate the air of mystery that surrounds scores - let the judges tell us what they saw that was good or bad.  If there was a penalty, always tell the coaches!  (It's not the judges' fault, the rules say they can't do these things.)

For the lowest-level skaters, I really like the compulsory moves events where you can clearly see and rate each skater's performance of each element.  I usually take a few notes on each competitor in the group so that I can honestly say to my student, "Well, your waltz jump takeoff was clean, but you two-footed the landing.  Everyone else did the jump without an error and jumped higher, so you lost points there.  Let's work on it during lessons."

As someone else said, an evaluation is useful and it's a good way to "save face" when working on a new or uncomfortable program.  The skater is judged at the competition, but they're not actually competing or worrying about their scores.  Our skating director very wisely suggested this to a parent/skater pair that wanted to pull out because the skater felt like she wasn't ready.  Unless she had offered it, I wouldn't have thought of it as an option.


ISI isn't an option in our area - the nearest ISI rink is hours away - but for the OP, I think it's the main competition and testing structure.  I get that the coach is a great instructor for the DD, but doesn't understand how to coach under ISI.  If she does know the USFSA system better, then the switch would work.  If not, it'll be the same boat/no paddle, different seat.  Again, it doesn't do anything until you get to intermediate Juvenile.

[phoenix]

You don't see IJS scoring until you get to Intermediate and that's sort of a flaw in the system. 

  Again, it doesn't do anything until you get to intermediate.

Actually, it's Juvenile.

[FigureSpins]

Actually, it's Juvenile.

Thanks, the word "interim" sent me down the wayward path, lol.  I corrected my post. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

Thanks, the word "interim" sent me down the wayward path, lol.  I corrected my post. 

I agree with your post though...I would have loved my dd to get more concrete judging feedback earlier-- as I said above, it has been really really good for her though at any younger an age, I don't know how helpful it would have been, there is an element of maturity involved I think too

[FigureSpins]

Thanks.  Our club has sponsored some informal "evaluation sessions," but they really include lower-level skaters in order to cost-justify the IJS-level reviews for the highest-level testers and competitors before their big events.  When the head coach has students about to test or compete, they post a notice about 2 weeks early, which doesn't help Basic Skills skaters that don't have a program already in the works.  Hopefully, this year, they'll give use more advance notice since the last few sessions only had a few skaters from 2-3 coaches.

Getting feedback right after the event is more timely and reflects what actually happened at that competition. I really appreciated that when I skated ISI - I could look and see that my flip didn't get the highest point score in the flight and know that I had to focus on it for the next competition.  They also noted deductions or penalties such as music overruns, which could again be corrected quickly.  I was disappointed to see that level of detail removed from the results when they automated the scoring system. 

I wonder if the ISI and Basic Skills committees would be willing to consider this suggestion for next year?
It would definitely help skaters and coaches eliminate the guesswork that currently exists.

[falen]

 

I wonder if the ISI and Basic Skills committees would be willing to consider this suggestion for next year?
It would definitely help skaters and coaches eliminate the guesswork that currently exists.

Ooo would that be nice.  How do we do that?  I know in schoolwork, dd has one teacher that just gives a final grade on essay.  Total mystery as to why she got a grade.  But another comments on every paragraph, both good and bad.  It is really helpful in preparing for the next assignment.  The improvement is consistently going up, while the other subject is a crap shoot.  That's how I feel with these competitions, it's a crap shoot!

[Sk8tmum]

The good thing about points is that you get a sheet of paper, it is objective, it lists the points and that. It is not perfect; there will be variances from comp to comp, in that you can see different opinions on the same element, skating skills, etc. It's not a science ... but it does disclose patterns. Which is why you can't really compare one comp to another.

Why do I think it is unlikely that they would host immediate feedback sessions at low level comps?  There is a reason why judges have those enclosed areas to retire to.  Judges are volunteers and it is not an easy job. It is stressful and hectic; they are sitting in the cold, often for hours, watching flight after flight of little girls (and boys) and scoring them in a not as easy as it sounds method, particularly in comps with large flights. They may have seen 10 or 12 flights in the day ... they are often flying from one flight to another. 

Upset parents, skaters, etc, or ones who are inexperienced at comps (I was there too, I was one of those parents), make for volatile situations.  To have to try to recall why one little girl in a pink dress out of dozens you saw during the day was placed ahead/behind other kids, or being asked for feedback on a flip or skills ... in that situation could make for difficult interactions.  As an example, back when my kid was skating Introductory (that's end of LTS in Canada) he was placed 1st in a flight vs. boys who were landing far more difficult jumps. However, as the category was restricted to jumps of less than one-rev, his routine was by the rules, and they received deductions for illegal elements. The spectators were baffled, the parents, coaches and skaters were furious; we booked it out of the arena as fast as we could and actually formed a "shield wall" around him to protect him from the angry parents and the tense situation ... he was 8. Granted, that was extreme ... but I've seen worse happen over the years. My daughter is a judge, and she has had hostile parents accost her, teary skaters burst into tears on her, and you can understand why she would be leery of having to do this type of feedback process.

[isakswings]

Ooo would that be nice.  How do we do that?  I know in schoolwork, dd has one teacher that just gives a final grade on essay.  Total mystery as to why she got a grade.  But another comments on every paragraph, both good and bad.  It is really helpful in preparing for the next assignment.  The improvement is consistently going up, while the other subject is a crap shoot.  That's how I feel with these competitions, it's a crap shoot!

It sometimes is just that, a crap shoot. To be honest, that seems to be how skating goes. I think what is important is to focus on personal goals. Look at the big picture and don't focus on the immediate result of a competition. Win or lose, there is always something to work on. My daughter placed well at her last competition. The funny thing is, the one element she was struggling on all that week and even that day, is likely what helped her place where she did(she landed one of 2 attempts in her program). It was a total crap shoot! To be honest, she went into the competition hoping to skate better then she did the 1st time she skated at that level(previous skate was not at all good!). She achieved her goal and more! The next comp is in February and the goal will be to skate a clean program. Her placement doesn't matter, what matters is that she and her coach see improvement. Even if she comes in last place, if she meets her goal then the competition was a success! Of coarse, we all want her to do well... but in the end she needs to know if she has tried her very best and still does not place high, it is ok!

[falen]

The good thing about points is that you get a sheet of paper, it is objective, it lists the points and that. It is not perfect; there will be variances from comp to comp, in that you can see different opinions on the same element, skating skills, etc. It's not a science , but it does disclose patterns. Which is why you can't really compare one comp to another.

Why do I think it is unlikely that they would host immediate feedback sessions at low level comps?  There is a reason why judges have those enclosed areas to retire to.  Judges are volunteers and it is not an easy job. It is stressful and hectic; they are sitting in the cold, often for hours, watching flight after flight of little girls (and boys) and scoring them in a not as easy as it sounds method, particularly in comps with large flights. They may have seen 10 or 12 flights in the day , they are often flying from one flight to another. 

Upset parents, skaters, etc, or ones who are inexperienced at comps (I was there too, I was one of those parents), make for volatile situations.  To have to try to recall why one little girl in a pink dress out of dozens you saw during the day was placed ahead/behind other kids, or being asked for feedback on a flip or skills , in that situation could make for difficult interactions.  As an example, back when my kid was skating Introductory (that's end of LTS in Canada) he was placed 1st in a flight vs. boys who were landing far more difficult jumps. However, as the category was restricted to jumps of less than one-rev, his routine was by the rules, and they received deductions for illegal elements. The spectators were baffled, the parents, coaches and skaters were furious; we booked it out of the arena as fast as we could and actually formed a "shield wall" around him to protect him from the angry parents and the tense situation , he was 8. Granted, that was extreme , but I've seen worse happen over the years. My daughter is a judge, and she has had hostile parents accost her, teary skaters burst into tears on her, and you can understand why she would be leery of having to do this type of feedback process.

I can definitly see psycho moms coming into play.  That is why a nice little sheet of paper with comments would be nice...no need to talk to anyone.  Honestly, I don't like to talk to people either, that's why forums are so great!