A way to center a sharpening machine on the blade

[Kaitsu]

I would not use this method, at least on Matrix blades. On Matrix, same square could be used like in normal blades. https://youtu.be/DbrR3hBtm70?si=yrajM4-v2Kt6Jw8I

On side honed blades this methods is much better than nothing or just eye balling without any tools. Gold Seals are a bit tricky and Gold Seal revolutions real nightmare.

Some skate techs uses magnetic bat gauge, that part which lays against the edges. They use skate holder as a datum and they eye ball if bat gauge and skate holder are parallel.

Using square like this has couple things which causes high meauring uncertainly.
1. We do not know how well the ruler end is made to be square
2. Blade is just <4mm thick. Its not so easy estimate edges unevenness from so short distace.
3. Skate holer is your datum, I dont think blade will never sit 100% perfectly in the skate holder.     

[Qsior]

Kaitsu thank you very much for your reply
Yes ,You are right that we do not know how well the ruler end is made to be square.

but I think it's not a bad method at all am I right ?
 3beltwesty in his video says that mk phantom blades, I think also Gold seal in the place where we put them on the holder are parallel so assuming they sit well on it, we can check like that. of course after removing from the holder I check again.

I often have very damaged matrixes with many scratches on the chassis, then there is a problem with checking as you show but I agree that method You showed is the best .

[Qsior]

Gold Seal revolutions real nightmare.
   

How to put them on the holder correctly?
measure edges like regular gold seal's?

[Kaitsu]

Its nice to see new active guy here in the forum.

I was also happy to hear that you double check edges evenness after the sharpening (directly from the blade). Even your squareness check in the skate holder would include some deviations, you will notice it later. Only problem is that you might need to grind skates several times before edges are perfectly level.

What comes to the scratches and other damages on the aluminum chassis, doesn't them exist also when you remove skate from the holder? Or is the trick that you use stanchions when skate in not in the skate holder?

I would recommend to use same type in square than what I use. "The magic" in my square is knife edge. It does not create shadows like your, which ruler part is probably ~1mm thick. Thinner the contact area is, easier to see the light leak. You can demonstrate by putting you square rules flat part against the blade stanchion. See how much you see light leak. After this start to tilting you ruler until only the ruler edge contacts (45 degrees). My assumption is that first stanchion looks 100% straight but, when only the corner contacts you start to see some light leak. This is the reason why knife edge rulers are used in the quality controls.

In the normal Gold Seals I use stanchions to verify edges evenness. In the beginning the problem was that stanchions were covered by skate holder which did mean that I need to take skate out from the skate holder to be able to measure edges evenness. When you put skate back to holder, it will never position similarly as last time. Try to check this with your machine with any blade. After you have finished the blade, remove it from the holder and paint the blade with marker. Put it back and make one grinding pass. If all marker traces are gone and edges are still even, you was a lucky one. Tip of the day...try to find some way to be able to use stanchions for measurement even skate would be in the skate holder.

[Kaitsu]

Gold Seal revolution is the much more trickier case. This blade designer only target must have been to make them visually pretty. Only flat area is in the behind the toe picks. Here is one method what JW recommends. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI

I have tried it and I didn't feel it reliable. When square was indicating edges to be even (in the back) magnetic BAT gauge did indicate that edges are heavily uneven. I would recommend using similar BAT gauge than what Paramount introduces in their video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjVpbt8ePmc&t=334s

Note that in Gold Seal revolutions it might not be smart to use skate holder which has wide contact area. Concave blade and flat counter face if not good combination. Hockey skate holder with narrow contact areas is much better for them.

[Qsior]

Its nice to see new active guy here in the forum.

I was also happy to hear that you double check edges evenness after the sharpening (directly from the blade). Even your squareness check in the skate holder would include some deviations, you will notice it later. Only problem is that you might need to grind skates several times before edges are perfectly level.

What comes to the scratches and other damages on the aluminum chassis, doesn't them exist also when you remove skate from the holder? Or is the trick that you use stanchions when skate in not in the skate holder?

I would recommend to use same type in square than what I use. "The magic" in my square is knife edge. It does not create shadows like your, which ruler part is probably ~1mm thick. Thinner the contact area is, easier to see the light leak. You can demonstrate by putting you square rules flat part against the blade stanchion. See how much you see light leak. After this start to tilting you ruler until only the ruler edge contacts (45 degrees). My assumption is that first stanchion looks 100% straight but, when only the corner contacts you start to see some light leak. This is the reason why knife edge rulers are used in the quality controls.

In the normal Gold Seals I use stanchions to verify edges evenness. In the beginning the problem was that stanchions were covered by skate holder which did mean that I need to take skate out from the skate holder to be able to measure edges evenness. When you put skate back to holder, it will never position similarly as last time.

I have been an active reader for some time, unfortunately I do not have enough knowledge to participate 

yes I am looking for one like you have, but I can't find it anywhere. I type "bevel square edges adjustable" and I don't see it anywhere in Europe at a reasonable price.

I just noticed today that my ruler is not super accurate, I checked it using a non adjustable bevel square and it has clearance.(small deviation)

yes, I know that I can't take the skate off holder while sharpening to check but
as you write, sometimes it is difficult to do it because the stanchions are covered.

-re-installation changes evenness
-when I have to dress the wheel again it might change evenness ( especially when I have to turn the Diamond)

[Query]

Gold Seal revolution is the much more trickier case. This blade designer only target must have been to make them visually pretty. Only flat area is in the behind the toe picks. Here is one method what JW recommends. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69tWd_K5iBI

Wow! He spends a lot of time sharpening one blade. He has to make many adjustments. And he makes many passes. Do you think he removes more than the 0.003" of steel that many skate techs recommend for figure skates, and therefore reduces blade lifetime? If so, that could be a major hidden cost associated with buying these blades.

Does the blade holder he uses do anything to straighten warped blades while sharpening? He seems to assume he can just make straight passes and get proper edges. Unless that is why he removes some of the Chrome plating?

I would recommend using similar BAT gauge than what Paramount introduces in their video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjVpbt8ePmc&t=334s

Didn't you worry in an earlier thread that magnetically attached level gauges could magnetize the blade, and steel filings to stick to the blade during sharpening, and might mess up the sharpening?

Interesting that Paramount sells gauges designed for other brands of blade.

Note that in Gold Seal revolutions it might not be smart to use skate holder which has wide contact area. Concave blade and flat counter face if not good combination. Hockey skate holder with narrow contact areas is much better for them.

Do you know anything about Wissota's Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder, which supposedly has a way to hold Revolution blades? (Does seem very expensive for businesses that don't sharpen a lot of Revolution blades, especially if they already have another blade holder.)

I wonder if most people who buy Revolution blades understand all the potential problems.

[marc]

I would recommend to use same type in square than what I use. "The magic" in my square is knife edge. It does not create shadows like your, which ruler part is probably ~1mm thick. Thinner the contact area is, easier to see the light leak. You can demonstrate by putting you square rules flat part against the blade stanchion. See how much you see light leak. After this start to tilting you ruler until only the ruler edge contacts (45 degrees). My assumption is that first stanchion looks 100% straight but, when only the corner contacts you start to see some light leak. This is the reason why knife edge rulers are used in the quality controls.

on en apprends tout les jours... et un jour nous arriverons tous ensemble à la perfection!!

qsior:
j'ai la même equerre que toi, et je vais essayer de limer doucement avec une 'triangle file'pour apointer l'equerre....
nous avons 4 chances de le reussir au cas ou on raterait 1 ou 2 x....
je pense que ça vaut le coup d'essayer....

[Kaitsu]

Qsior,
I can see that yuo are taking in account many things what many other people don't do. Highly appreciated!

[Kaitsu]

Wow! He spends a lot of time sharpening one blade. He has to make many adjustments. And he makes many passes. Do you think he removes more than the 0.003" of steel that many skate techs recommend for figure skates, and therefore reduces blade lifetime? If so, that could be a major hidden cost associated with buying these blades.

By buying Revolution blades you are part of this happiness 

Does the blade holder he uses do anything to straighten warped blades while sharpening? He seems to assume he can just make straight passes and get proper edges.

No, it does not. If you didn't know, Gold Seals are tapered and side honed. It has to be a more modern skate holder which is able to straighten GS revolution blades

Didn't you worry in an earlier thread that magnetically attached level gauges could magnetize the blade, and steel filings to stick to the blade during sharpening, and might mess up the sharpening?

Yes, its true that I do not like using magnetic BAT gauges since they leave residual magnet, but do you have better solution for these blades?

Do you know anything about Wissota's Elite 3-D Universal Figure Skate Holder, which supposedly has a way to hold Revolution blades? (Does seem very expensive for businesses that don't sharpen a lot of Revolution blades, especially if they already have another blade holder.)

You need to use "hockey holder", like Wissota´s universal holder, which has narrow contact points for revolution blades. "Figure skate holders" does have too wide contact area and you cannot clamp revolution blades on them.

I wonder if most people who buy Revolution blades understand all the potential problems.

No, they do not. Even they would understand, they do not care since they do not need to sharpen them. How they look is more important for them. Gluing couple Chrystal strasses and they are even more attractive.

[Query]

I don't have a perfect solution to the residual magnetism problem.

A lot of people use magnetic gauges, so maybe the problem isn't real severe - if the magnetic force isn't too large.

Maybe you could swap the orientation of the gauges every time you use them, so the residual magnetism tends to cancel out. Not sure if that could work.

My best solution would be for HD Sports to make the sides of the part of blade that stays above the ice parallel.

[Qsior]

Tip of the day...try to find some way to be able to use stanchions for measurement even skate would be in the skate holder.

is it possible to do this, did you find a way?
in the movie I see that Bruce uses the little point near stanchion to check the squarness.
maybe that's what you meant?

[Kaitsu]

Qsior, I do have my own method which enables using stanchions as a datum even the blade is in the skate holder. It works only in "normal" side honed blades, not in Revolution blades. For the Revolution blades, Paramount style of BAT gauge is best method I know. I have made my own version also form Paramount skates gauge what I use for Revolution blades.

[Qsior]

I think I know what it is, :-)
 yesterday I sharpened gold seal, and I found a place to measure evenness. unfortunately, even though they were almost new, they were slightly bent at the end.
as You mentioned in one of your videos, it was probably because of bad assembly.


PS : Hurrraaa , I have my own 

[Qsior]

I have a problem.
Many of these lite's blades are bent at the front. I don't know if it's the assembly problem or if they're just thin. Unfortunately, my holder isn't like the IE's and doesn't grip the entire blade, straightening it. What can I do to sharpen them properly? Focus on the center and the back?
Please advise

[Kaitsu]

I will never trust that skate holder straightens the blade. I will try to straighten the blade already before sharpening as straight as possible. Blades will change shape (straightness or more bent) easier than you would though. Typically they are curved like a banana and I use table corner or wooden block where I have cut groove with circular saw like a wrench. Force the blade by your hand in to needed direction. Especially, if boots does have leather soles, make sure that screws are tight before you check straightness or before you try straightening. Blade may change shape when you tighten the screws or it may not stay straight when you try to straighten it.

[Kaitsu]

If you are not able to straighten the blade(s) with this method use one of following methods...

1. loosen one screw at time to see which one of them prevents blade straightening. If the screw you loosened didn't help, put it back. Focus to those conical head screws where you can see already visually that screw head is not sitting properly in the counterbore.
2. loosen temporary all screws so that blade becomes straight while you sharpen them. Remember to tighten the screws after the sharpening. Edea can withstand this well, if you are not over tightening the screws. I have one pair of skates where I need to do this every time when I sharpen them. I have put sticker in to the blade, which reminds me about this.
3. Last and worst option is accept that you cannot get edges to be even all over the blade. Sometimes you may face this situation even the blade would be straight. In the Skateology manual Sid advices to make deviations to be even. If the blade is like a banana, then in the both ends of blades your square is tilted same direction and in the middle opposite than in the ends. This is not however optimal solution. Its very hard to verify that skater will get similar sharpening in the next time.

[Qsior]

Kaitsu,
as always, thank You very very much, it's amazing that I can always count on You, I'm really very grateful .

[Bill_S]

... I will try to straighten the blade already before sharpening as straight as possible. Blades will change shape (straightness or more bent) easier than you would though. Typically they are curved like a banana and I use table corner or wooden block where I have cut groove with circular saw like a wrench. ...

I'm not sure which blades you were able to straighten by hand, but in September 2019 I did an experiment with shaped jaws mounted to a shop vice in an attempt to straighten an MK Pro blade. I bent the blade in the vice severely, but in each attempt, it sprung back to its former shape. Look at the photo of the blade being bent in post #50 of this thread...

https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8417.50

I still have those blades, and the attempt to straighten them caused small cracks in the chrome plating to appear after a couple of years had passed.

Different steel and heat treating will have different yield strengths. Mild steel will bend easily, but the spring steel in an MK Pro did not allow for re-bending without damage.

FWIW, I skated on those MK Pro blades with the original bend, and the slightly bent blade did not affect the quality of my skating. I actually liked those blades a lot in my 2019 experiments with mounting and comparing a number of different blades on one pair of boots. I found them to be among my favorites back then for performance on the ice.

[Kaitsu]

Bill,
I think the main difference between our methods is that you tried straightening in free stage when I do it always when blades are mounted into the boots. That´s why advised to ensure that blade mounting screws are tight enough. Second difference is that 99% of cases, root cause for "my" blade straightness issues is either poor work in the blade mounting process or boot has changed shape after the blade mounting (after skating and before next sharpening).

Approx. 90% of skates I see at first time requires blade straightening. I have noted that one skate shop is mostly doing good job on this area when many other seems not to control blade straightness when they mount the blades.

If I mount the blades, I do check blade straightness's already before I mount them. If they are heavily bent already when they are new, I give skater change to claim them for the shop where they have purchased them. If I would been already mounted blades, then it's too late to claim them as a warranty.

99,5% of the blades I mount requires straightness adjustment after applying temporary screws. After this I will monitor the straightness also while I add more screws. This gives me information which screw possibly causes the troubles. In the blade mounting phase it's important to follow blade straightness from stanchions as well as closer to area you use for skating. They both should be as straight as possible. I have noted that straightness issues in the stanchions are often indicating twisting issues which is coming from the unfortune fact that there are often huge gaps between the blade and boot.

Best changes for very final straightness adjustment are when heel plate does have only three screws. 2 in slotted holes and only one locking screw. Sometimes I need to loosen temporary some of the screws because there is too much friction between the blade and boot. Note that this method works mainly to fix "banana shape" issues in the blades.

Since my method is not trying to change the steel "spring properties", like yours, I am 100% sure that I have never destroyed the blades with my straightening. See linked video to see how easily blades will change their straightness. I can guarantee that force I can cause just with my fingers is way less than forced caused by skater weight. This hopefully gives some impression that blades will bend also while skating...especially if screws are loosened. https://youtu.be/_6xHgJz-3zA

[marc]

I had exactly the same problem as you at first.
I didn't understand, and some blades weren't straight, of course!

Since I modified my original skate holder (where the blade is clamped), I no longer have a problem.
Then I built one from start to finish.
And the third original one was modified to better control the height adjustment!

Now I have three:
- 1 for classic blades, let's say
- 1 for hockey and low-end blades
- 1 for Matrix blades

The hardest part about designing or modifying is finding the right spring stiffness!

What's interesting in life is to always improve and know how to sharpen any blade: parabolic blades, Matrix blades, etc., it's always a challenge!