Permanent Plugs for Synthetic Soles and Heels

[tstop4me]

* For many years, I have successfully installed permanent plugs for soles and heels fabricated from leather or leather composite materials [in particular, Jackson LCL (Leather-Cork-Leather) and Jackson LCF (Leather Carbon Fiber)].  I drill out used holes and use plugs cut from birch dowel rods.  The dowel rods are inexpensive, come in a wide range of diameters , and are easy to work (cut and file flush with the sole or heel). Larger diameters are useful if the holes are heavily damaged, and I need to drill out larger diameter holes; or if there are two or more holes close together, I can drill out one larger diameter hole and use a single larger diameter plug. 

For adhesive, I use steel-filled epoxy, such as J.B. Weld regular, not quick-set.  Since the adhesive is used in holes ~3/8" to ~1" deep, a two-part epoxy (resin plus hardener) that hardens via chemical reaction is preferable to adhesives that harden via evaporation of solvents or reaction with oxygen in the air.  The regular epoxy has longer setting and hardening times than the quick-set, allowing the epoxy more time to permeate the dowel rod and the surrounding sole or heel material, leading to a stronger bond. 

If needed, I can drill in or near the permanent plugs without limitation (including at the perimeter of the plug) to install new screws where needed.

* Many boots now have synthetic soles and heels.  Details of the materials are either not available or sketchy. I'd like to compile a list of materials suitable for plugs (in particular, whether birch dowel rods will still work) and a suitable adhesive (a suitable two-part epoxy would be preferable).

(cont'd)

[tstop4me]

* Here's a listing of the soles and heels I'm interested in:

(1) Jackson Fusion.

(2) Jackson PBX.

(3) Edea. 

Edea sells custom carbon-fiber filler plugs.  One diameter only. As far as I can tell, the Edea soles and heels are not fabricated from carbon fiber, so I don't know why they sell carbon-fiber filler plugs.  Anyone try more common stock materials, preferably available in a variety of diameters if needed?

The Edea website (https://edeaskates.com/en/roller/accessories/tech/carbon-filler/) states that no adhesive is needed:

 "Small lightweight, strong carbon bars. Used to plug holes when changing the blade model that require a different screw position. The bar is specifically designed for Edea boots with a diameter of 2.5mm and 12mm in length. Simply tap the bar into the hole using a hammer. Once in place you can even drill close to the bar." 

That doesn't sound kosher to me.  But note that they do stipulate "you can even drill close to the bar", without saying how close.  I guess this also implies that you can't drill into the bar.

U.S. Skates is the US Edea distributor.  On their website (https://skatesus.com/product/carbon-filler-plugs/), they specify an adhesive:

"How to use the Carbon Filler Plugs
Apply adhesive (usually Marine Epoxy) to the Carbon Filler Plugs, then utilizing needle nose pliers to hold the Carbon Filler Plug, use a small hammer to tap them into the unused holes. The Carbon Filler Plugs are exactly the correct length for the EDEA Footbed After allowing the adhesive to harden, the new holes can be drilled with a 2.0mm (5/64ths") drill bit. (If there is no hole interference for new hole locations, it is not necessary to fill the unused holes)."

It's not clear from their instructions, whether you can drill in or near the carbon-fiber filler plug to install a new screw, though.

(4) Generic PVC.  Typically used for el-cheapo boots; maybe not worth repairing.  But for completeness, I've included them.

(5) Other (Please Specify).

Thanks.  I'd appreciate responses from people who have actually performed repairs.

[Query]

OK, I admit I've only filled holes in leather soles.

FWIIW, West System Epoxy (widely used in the marine world) has a lot of educational material on their website. But maybe you need to know what resins, etc. are used in the skate sole to figure out what will adhere to it and how to prepare the surface?

Are composite skate soles painted?

What is the advantage of a steel filled epoxy over regular epoxy, for this purpose? And would that be a problem if the new holes overlap with the old holes - i.e., you have to drill the new holes through steel particles? Does a steel filled epoxy make sense repairing a non-metallic surface?

I maybe recall from a short class taught by Nick Schade at Chesapeake Lightcraft (for making small boats) that fresh epoxy adheres to fully cured vinylester and polyester resins, but not vice versa - but you can look that up.

Almost any marine store sells repair kits for patching hulls. (So does West System.) The idea being that you don't need large quantities of materials for a small patch.

[tstop4me]

FWIIW, West System Epoxy (widely used in the marine world) has a lot of educational material on their website. But maybe you need to know what resins, etc. are used in the skate sole to figure out what will adhere to it and how to prepare the surface?

As I wrote above, "Many boots now have synthetic soles and heels.  Details of the materials are either not available or sketchy."  There is no universal adhesive suitable for all materials.  You need to pick an adhesive suitable for both the sole/heel material and the plug material.  It's hard to pick a suitable adhesive if you don't have details of the materials you want to bond, correct? Hence the underlying reason for my thread.

I maybe recall from a short class taught by Nick Schade at Chesapeake Lightcraft (for making small boats) that fresh epoxy adheres to fully cured vinylester and polyester resins, but not vice versa - but you can look that up.

Almost any marine store sells repair kits for patching hulls. (So does West System.) The idea being that you don't need large quantities of materials for a small patch.

Again, all this info is of no value if we don't know what materials we are bonding, correct?

Are composite skate soles painted?

I know of one example that is painted and one example that is not painted. How is this relevant to the topic of permanent plugs?

[tstop4me]

What is the advantage of a steel filled epoxy over regular epoxy, for this purpose? And would that be a problem if the new holes overlap with the old holes - i.e., you have to drill the new holes through steel particles? Does a steel filled epoxy make sense repairing a non-metallic surface?

Steel-filled epoxy is stronger and tougher.  It is more robust if you want to drill into it and cut threads into it.  As I wrote above, "If needed, I can drill in or near the permanent plugs without limitation (including at the perimeter of the plug) to install new screws where needed."  My drill bits are made from high-grade, high-speed steel.  I have no problems drilling into steel-filled epoxy.  But even with el-cheapo bits from a dollar store or Harbor Freight, there shouldn't be a problem because you are drilling into steel particles embedded into a softer epoxy matrix.  Steel-filled epoxy is not limited to repairing metallic objects.

[Query]

What Edea says about their sole composition is SO non-specific:

https://edeaskates.com/en/ice/why-edea-is-so-special/more-confidence/innovative-sole-system/

"Macromolecule". That could even be carbon fiber or a plastic resin. "Honeycomb"? Some woven fibers, including carbon fiber, are available in so-called honeycomb forms. They seem to be saying as little as they can while making it clear that it is wonderful and unique.

Did you contact them to try to get specifics, or just rely on their web page?

https://skatesus.com/product/carbon-filler-plugs/

says they usually use Marine epoxy to bond the carbon fiber plugs to the soles - which implies that bonds to the soles. But there is more than one type of Marine Epoxy. But perhaps you could call them to find out which?

Last I knew SkatesUS was the North American distributer for Edea. And they sell a lot of Edea boots. I watched David Ripp, SkateUS's president, fill holes in Edea skates - but I that was a long time ago - the composition may have changed.

I think they would be a good place to call - about Edea skates.

In terms of stripped holes, you will recall that Bill_S mentioned that you could use a larger diameter screw. It's non-reversible, but if all else fails...

Maybe Bill_S has worked on other brand soles, or he knows someone who has.

There are many sources that say you can make epoxy stick to almost anything, by sanding it to create a rough surface with spaces to fill. Since Epoxy fills space, it creates a mechanical (not chemical) bond (West System calls this a "secondary" bond) to the rough surface. People also speak of sanding old epoxy so that new epoxy can bond to it.

Marine epoxies also have to be waterproof, seems like a good thing for ice skating.

Edea have become popular. Maybe you could get your hands on someone's old discarded Edea boots (and any other boot brands and types you might want to repair), so you could test doing things yourself? But of course, those would be older models that might be different.

Anyway, I'll shut up now. I really can't help.

[tstop4me]

Looks like my first post was too subtle.  I should have highlighted:

I'd appreciate responses from people who have actually performed repairs.

<<Emphasis added.>>