Re: Masks for Skating

[Query]

I believe there have been other hockey Covid-spreading incidents. Same is true for football, soccer, basketball. But none of them wear filter masks - or at least the pros don't. And they come into direct contact. A lot.

As you know, sometimes other skaters occasionally collide with you on any ice rink. And kids may not stay 6' away. I think masks make sense.

Lately, I've taken to wearing two layers of washable mask in public places. I use a two layer cotton mask under a stretchable polyester mask. Studies say polyester masks aren't much good in themselves (the droplets don't stick, but break up into smaller droplets which may actually stay in the air longer, and be counterproductive), but the cotton masks don't conform perfectly to my face, so they would let droplets through. Ideally I should use polypropylene for the outer or inner layer - it generates static electricity when rubbing against cotton, that is supposed to help make the droplets adhere to the cotton. But I found a bunch of cheap Polyester masks at Walmart (I think about $10/pack of 5) that fit me perfectly.

I notice wearing any mask I've tried with glasses sometimes makes the glasses fog up. (I hope that is condensing vapor, not droplets...) There are anti-fogging sprays you can buy in stores that can prevent that. I've been planning to try simple spit or alcohol. (I've heard of spit being used on the inside of diving masks for that purpose.)

Maybe you should even wear glasses - if you don't have any, try the low power ones at a dollar store, or the no-power ones that are sometimes placed into frames for demo purposes in glasses stores. In theory, Eye protective shop goggles is better (the dollar store variety would be good enough, because you aren't trying to keep out fast moving wood chips or metal files), or transparent swim googles that fit around your eye would be better, but I think they look too weird. But I admit I haven't used glasses or googles.

[TDL]

In terms of masks, I use the Under Armour sports mask which,  for me anyway, allows better breathing than a normal cloth mask.

[ChristyRN]

Update: Tried to skate with my mask on but my glasses kept fogging up so I had to forgo the mask.  Luckily there were only 4 skaters and 1 coach so I never got close to another skater.  I have to find a solution before the next time I skate.

Use a strip of medical tape to seal the top of the mask to your skin. It's an old operating room trick that works. Just be sure to get a good seal and peel it off gently.

[Query]

Use a strip of medical tape to seal the top of the mask to your skin. It's an old operating room trick that works. Just be sure to get a good seal and peel it off gently.

Oh. Rather than the outer stretchable mask layer and the anti-fog spray or similar that I suggested.

Masks already look weird, though people are getting used to it. Tape adds a little extra weird - assuming it is single sided tape and shows, like here.

I've wondered whether fogging means that some droplets are getting through, or whether it is just condensation of vapor that hopefully carries no virus. If droplets are getting through, I guess tape might stop it, if you tape all the way round.

However

  https://bellmedical.com/blog/measures-to-control-the-transmission-of-covid-19

sites a study

  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Patrick_Harris3/publication/221758737_Adhesive_tape_in_the_health_care_setting_Another_high-risk_fomite/links/02bfe512410bbbcc57000000/Adhesive-tape-in-the-health-care-setting-Another-high-risk-fomite.pdf

that says that 11/21 samples of operating room tape had bad bacteria (VRE and/or MRSA) on it. The first link speculates it may also carry the virus causing Covid-19, and could lead to infecting the patient.

Of course, hospital settings are more likely than many to have disease organisms, and the article is only speculative with regards to Covid. I didn't find any other articles suggesting that, and don't have the expertise to evaluate that speculation.

[AgnesNitt]

I've switched back to skating with a double mask after a couple of months of skating single masks.

But the rink has really enforced masks on hockey players, and not just those P.O.S. gaiters.

[FigureSpins]

As an aside, if you do forget a mask, most businesses (incl. rinks) have disposable ones available that are either free or cheap, so ask before you trudge back to the car, lol.

[dlbritton]

I've switched back to skating with a double mask after a couple of months of skating single masks.

But the rink has really enforced masks on hockey players, and not just those P.O.S. gaiters.

Duke University did a study evaluating masks and found single layer stretchy neck gaiters actually had the potential to spread COVID more than not wearing a mask at all. The weave broke down vapor droplets into finer droplets so they stayed airborne longer.

[tstop4me]

Duke University did a study evaluating masks and found single layer stretchy neck gaiters actually had the potential to spread COVID more than not wearing a mask at all. The weave broke down vapor droplets into finer droplets so they stayed airborne longer.

Yeah, previously, the recommendation from various health authorities was along the lines of: "Any face covering is better than no face covering at all.  At the very least, a face covering (of any type) will do no harm, even if some are not particularly effective."  Then the Duke report (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/36/eabd3083) came out.  And the popular press raised concerns that neck gaiters were more harmful than no face covering at all (without discussing all the nuances). 

After those headlines surfaced, the Duke researchers cautioned against jumping to conclusions, since their initial report focused on the demonstration of a simple, low-cost measurement apparatus, rather than a careful study of face coverings.  See, e.g.,

https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2020/08/duke-university-researchers-dispute-common-interpretation-mask-study-covid


Subsequent studies by others were more kindly towards neck gaiters.  See, e.g., the following and the references cited within:

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20201011/neck-gaiters-may-protect-against-covid-19-spread

https://medical.mit.edu/covid-19-updates/2020/08/neck-gaiters

There are, of course, a lot of uncontrolled variables in all these studies.   [ETA:  And preliminary results tend to be posted hastily on the Internet these days.  There are sometimes follow-on, peer-reviewed articles; but sometimes not.]

[Query]

"There is no life without ice." If you can find a reasonably uncrowded rink, that looks like it is kept clean and sanitary, and you take reasonable precautions, I figure it's reasonably safe. I also walk and jog on uncrowded sidewalks and trails. And I've done a bit of inline skating on same.

As far as neck gaiters and other polyester masks, as I alluded to earlier in this thread,

Lately, I've taken to wearing two layers of washable mask in public places. I use a two layer cotton mask under a stretchable polyester mask. Studies say polyester masks aren't much good in themselves (the droplets don't stick, but break up into smaller droplets which may actually stay in the air longer, and be counterproductive), but the cotton masks don't conform perfectly to my face, so they would let droplets through. Ideally I should use polypropylene for the outer or inner layer - it generates static electricity when rubbing against cotton, that is supposed to help make the droplets adhere to the cotton. But I found a bunch of cheap Polyester masks at Walmart (I think about $10/pack of 5) that fit me perfectly.

There have actually been multiple studies that said polyester masks (including those neck gaiters, which I had in fact bought - BTW, they are only one layer thick) were not nearly as good as cotton. Not just the Duke one. And even later studies were only saying it might not be worse than wearing nothing at all. But I figure you could use those neck gaiters in the same way as I use my other outer polyester masks - on top of a double layer cotton. In fact, they might be nice when the whether turns a bit cold - sort of like a ski mask, though I admit they don't provide much insulation.

BTW cotton does sort of make sense. It is hydrophilic - meaning water sticks to it. Apparently including droplets. However, many of the mask tests were done using small airborne salt particles, because it is easy to make them in the hardest to stop size range. I don't understand why cotton would stop small salt particles better than polyester and other synthetics. Anyone know?

I just tried rubbing alcohol as an anti-fog layer on glasses, while wearing a mask. It works pretty well, though it may be temporary, until it evaporates. Some people say detergents work too. Many anti-fog sprays contain one or both.

I refuse to wear a transparent plastic face shield while skating. They move around too much. Imagine trying to spin with a loose shield bouncing around! Also, I'm not sure how well they stop the droplets at all angles. They seem to need anti-fog stuff too.

In terms of masks, I use the Under Armour sports mask which,  for me anyway, allows better breathing than a normal cloth mask.

It's all synthetic materials, including polyester; no cotton. AFAICT, Under Armour provides no reason to believe it works better than other synthetic materials. Though it does look thicker, so it might be better.

Masks seem so alien to figure skating, which is so very much a visual sport! But we do what we must.

All the rinks I checked require masks. They are also want people to register in advance (so they can control the number of skaters), and non-skaters - including parents - can't enter the facility. At some rinks, I've seen rules you can't even bring in shoes or skate guards (I guess unless you can put them in your pocket - like flip flops and soakers, though the extra weight would interfere with spinning too), because they don't want you leaving things around that other people might touch. And don't count on being able to use drinking fountains - so drink water before you enter.

I'm sometimes wearing gloves too, even when it isn't all that cold. Just in case someone runs into me.

[TDL]

Following up on the Under Armour sports mask, it has a little protrusion between the nose and the mask, meaning that you are not breathing right into the fabric.

There is some type of insert in the mask that allows for this.

Think this is what allows for the better air flow.

[Query]

Following up on the Under Armour sports mask, it has a little protrusion between the nose and the mask, meaning that you are not breathing right into the fabric.

There is some type of insert in the mask that allows for this.

Think this is what allows for the better air flow.

We are getting slightly off-track from the original post. The question was whether any Covid Spread is traceable to ice rinks, and the answer is yes.

Of course, masks are meant to reduce that. This is an extension of the topic because we might want to ask which masks do best.

But

  https://www.underarmour.com/en-us/p/ua-sportsmask/1368010.html?cid=PS%7cUS%7cBR%7cGGL%7cAll%7cunder+armour+sports+mask%7cALL%7cacc%7ctrain%7cEXACT%7cDG%7cp54917649873&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIhryvm-TB7QIVyMfICh0c3QvxEAAYASAAEgKNxPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

lists the materials in the Under Armour Sports Mask. (Click on Specs.) None are cotton, in fact they are all non-hydrophilic synthetics, so none are likely to do as much as cotton fabrics to stop droplets.

I suppose

Water-resistant outer shell features smooth, breathable spacer fabric...

Polyurethane open-cell foam lets air through but makes it hard for moisture & sweat to pass

is meant to make you think that droplets are trapped inside, though I think the mask would rapidly saturate in hockey play if that worked. In contrast, cotton masks, as well as most stretchable  polyester fabrics, allow the some of that moisture to evaporate to form a vapor (individual water molecules), presumably without much virus.

So perhaps the Under Armour product, like the neck gaiters, was meant to meet the requirements that some facilities impose on players to wear masks, without much regards to effectiveness. And of course, to make a profit. I admit it looks kind of intimidating.

Of course, no mask sold to the general in the public U.S. meets particularly high virus-excluding standards:

  https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/coronavirus-covid-19-and-medical-devices/face-masks-including-surgical-masks-and-respirators-covid-19

Even medical grade N95 masks, largely reserved for medical personnel and a few others, aren't perfect:

There are also somewhat similar masks from other countries that can be bought by the general public, though they don't meet formal U.S. standards

  https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1791500O/comparison-ffp2-kn95-n95-filtering-facepiece-respirator-classes-tb.pdf

and a report

  https://www.ecri.org/press/up-to-70-of-chinese-kn95-masks-tested-by-ecri-dont-meet-minimum-standards/

said that up to 70% of imported Chinese KN95 masks are counterfeit and don't meet Chinese standards, though they also say

N95 masks that don't meet U.S. regulatory standards still generally provide more respiratory protection than surgical or cloth masks...

ECRI researchers say many non-certified masks that have head and neck straps, as opposed to masks with ear loops, better conform to and seal against the wearer's face, ensuring that air being breathed is filtered.

(Some relatives of mine used KN95 masks to filter West Coast wildfire smoke, and felt it helped. I don't know if they were counterfeit.)

But all of the medical grade masks, probably including counterfeits, would mostly make it too hard to breath for sports. So we are always compromising. I just worry that the Under Armour product is potentially much less effective than cotton masks, or than people assume them to be.

As I said, I personally have not found it hard to breath through cotton masks, polyester masks, or both. But I admit I am not sprinting fast, the way hockey players do. Perhaps at athletic limits, they are a problem.

[Isk8NYC]

[Mod note: mask discussion split from original topic of COVID spread at rinks.]