Sharing private ice

[Query]

This is in response to another thread, http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8171.msg97305#msg97305, by an ice dancer who experienced problems trying to share session ice while doing his pattern, but is a separate topic in of itself.

Purely as an academic exercise, let's see how a group of people could effectively get short blocks of private ice, for figure skating patterns and programs, and how a rink might choose to accommodate them:

1. Organize as a private group of friends or acquaintances, NOT a club - you need this to be exclusive, because you can't have people who aren't willing or able to follow the rules, to prevent problems that occur when someone doesn't or can't. Also, there is a lot less work, politics, and possibly expense involved than doing anything through a formal club.

2. Record the music in advance, announcing each person or couple allowing and announcing, say 30 seconds, in advance, to get into place. That way no time is wasted organizing the music.

3. Near where I live, ice time is worth about $250 - $350 (USD) / hour. So, if you need 6 minutes total (1/10 hour) you must pay $25 - $35. Increase or decrease according to the time each person needs, including that 30 second or so time to get into place. There may be some inefficiency - some undesignated ice time, whose cost everyone must split, for a beginning of session warm-up. Yes that is expensive - but that is what ice time is worth. When a club allows people dedicated program ice time at lower rates, everyone else on the session is to some extent being cheated. If someone doesn't come, you can either charge them anyway, or split the cost of their unused time, which is used the same way.

4. A solo skater should in all fairness pay just as much for their block of time as a couple or pair. Of course, there are some pattern dances and freestyle patterns where two people and/or couples, starting at opposite ends or sides, can dance the same dance or pattern at once - so couples or pairs, and those  who agree to be on the ice at the same time can split that cost. Of course, their coach(es) can also be on the ice or at one side at the same time.

5. Rent a full Olympic size rink if possible. People sometimes drive hours to get to places that offer private ice - but they are much less likely to do so on small size rinks. If you don't get people from a wide area, rather than just one rink, it would probably be hard to get enough people to make this work.

6. Accept that this may have to be an after-normal-hours or early morning rental. As I have mentioned elsewhere, during the hours people normally work, you can often effectively get private or near-private ice at many rinks during public or freestyle sessions, because at most rinks those sessions are very lightly attended. I assume your schedule doesn't allow you to take advantage of that, else this whole issue wouldn't exist.

7. Some rinks do after hours "lock-ins" - frequently where no rink staff are present - at somewhat lower cost / hour, maybe even 1/2 cost for a few hours. Look into it. You have to make them understand you are responsible, won't do anything bad, and will lock up after you leave. Also, if you pay far enough in advance (e.g., months), some rinks are willing to negotiate to reduce costs.

8. By the end of the rented session, the ice will be rougher than at the start, unless you pay extra for extra ice smoothings. Perhaps the people at the start of the session should pay a little more.

9. In connection with this, a lot of skaters don't realize that if your blades are sharp enough, you can cut through the surface junk, and for the most part barely notice a little extra ice roughness. Sure, keeping your blades sharp costs more, in both sharpening and replacement costs, but compared to the other costs discussed here, that's trivial.

10. If it can be well enough organized, you can give each skater a copy of the programs of other skaters, and allow the others in the group warm up on the part of the ice that isn't in use by the designated program. Of course, that will roughen the ice more.

11. It's very important all these rules be agreed upon in advance. You don't have time to argue during the rented time, and there should be no ill feelings.

12. It is very important to keep good relations with the rink to make this work and keep them willing to rent to you. Designate one responsible relatively non-emotional person, and possibly an alternate, to handle all rink relations. You might be surprised to learn how many problems rinks have with groups that don't show, or don't pay, or who mess up facilities, etc. Make sure there are zero problems for the rink.

13. Some rinks may want all participants to carry insurance. E.g., health insurance, and the insurance that comes with belonging to a figure skating club. Make sure the responsible agent has copies of proof of insurance to show the rink.

P.S. I'm not talking as someone who needs this. I'm not high enough level, and I'm fairly satisfied with using public ice sessions. But I have worked at a rink, though not as a manager, and am somewhat aware of these issues.

Do any of you have other ideas or related anecdotes to share?

[alejeather]

It sounds a little like privately organized official practice ice.

[Query]

Exactly.

[Query]

Of course, what would make a rink more likely to say yes:

If the responsible agent is a coach, and all the students are taught by the coach, and the rink gets payment from the coach. That's a really big deal, because the coach has good reason to be nice to the rink, and make sure everything goes smoothly, has passed a background check, and because the coach has insurance. Most of the rinks I know won't do anything without insurance that covers them, and they want all responsible agents to have passed a background check.

Is that even vaguely plausible? Yes - because most of the other people competing with you for access to the facility do exactly that. Skating clubs of all types (figure, hockey, speed, curling) frequently do have coaches as responsible agents, do carry insurance, and responsible parties have passed background checks - and, for the most part, though this varies, have paid in advance.

Public sessions, freestyles, and birthday parties, etc. are different - but rinks use other responsible agents, usually hire rink guards or coaches for everything but freestyles, and pay for insurance.

Having all the students be taught by one coach might also make it financially viable for the coach, because they could teach continuous coaching time. Especially if it was tacked onto the end of another session where the coach was teaching anyway.

However, I don't think many coaches would be willing to spend the time to organize this. But if you did most of the work of organizing it for them, just maybe.

Of course, this was just an academic exercise. Some of us have paid pretty high rates at one time or another for private lessons. But to add to that the cost of private ice, and the risks and organization time - that's crazy.

It's the sort of thing people dream of doing - along with winning at the Olympics, climbing Mount Everest.

[nicklaszlo]

If the responsible agent is a coach, and all the students are taught by the coach, and the rink gets payment from the coach.

In my experience this will result in ill-will between the coaches. 

Most skaters don't actually practice much outside their lessons, so it's hard to fill a session with just one coach.  You need about six coaches.

[Query]

In my experience this will result in ill-will between the coaches.

I take it your reply implies it was actually done where you know about it.

One local-to-me related case I know about involved 3 coaches, who set up there own skating school. They leased time at one rink (which, quite frankly, was in danger of closing had they not done so), and then at some other rinks. They had (have) an exclusivity rule - you have to use one of them as your private coach to take their group lessons, or skate on their leased sessions. There was some ill will - at least one coach felt at least one of that coach's students had been improperly approached - I think this was before USFSA said poaching isn't technically banned. In addition, the school was successful in producing a few quite competitive students, which always has the possibility of creating resentment. They also kicked out people who weren't competitive enough - which undoubted must have created more resentment. But that's a special case - elite coaches, who only want to coach the best, are always likely to get other people mad at them.

Several other coaches near me have leased ice time at various rinks to teach group lessons. I don't recall hearing of any resentment for that - but I might not have known about it.

But neither of these was for dedicated program or pattern ice, such as I was talking about. It just seems like a very logical thing to do - IF you have the money.

In your case, you are trying to do a dance pattern (Yankee Polka) that takes up most of the ice, and do it on a small rink. Since it is a pretty high level dance, I would guess you are moving pretty fast. I suspect it is always going to be hard to make that work well during a shared session, especially one not dedicated to Pattern Dance, unless you are able to come in during non-busy weekday day-time public or freestyle sessions when no one else, or almost no one, happens to be there. Private ice would solve this problem.

Instead of the organized session I suggested here, perhaps you could talk the rink into tacking on a few minutes onto the end or beginning of an existing session, that you would buy? Each Yankee Polka pattern is supposed to take 1 minute and 04 seconds, so maybe a few minutes would be enough to run your pattern a couple times, especially if you use headphones so you don't have to set up the AV equipment. Sure, $5/minute, or whatever they charge, is a lot - but for a few minutes, it would get you what you need without interference, and end your frustration. If it happens to be a session at which your coach teaches - perhaps he/she could be there afterward for comments.

That would eliminate the issue of having a coach appear to monopolize the ice. Though it isn't certain the rink would agree without the coach's involvement.

But it's your choice.

[Isk8NYC]

Topic moved and locked.  Query - for the record, US Figure Skating didn't have a poaching rule and the admins/mods would appreciate you not libeling on the skatingforums site.