Triple lutz vs. triple toe walley

[sampaguita]

The lutz is also counterrotated, just like the toe walley, but how come double toe walleys are extremely rare, while triple lutz-triple toe/loop combos are ubiquitous nowadays? Is the toe walley really more difficult than the lutz?

[JSM]

Toe walleys and toe loops are considered the same jump, and therefore receive the same amount of points under IJS - and you can only repeat two triples in a freeskate.

I think most skaters just don't bother with the jump because there is no real benefit to train it.

[nicklaszlo]

Before IJS, some skaters did "triple toe walley" with an outside three, step down, jump pattern.  Elaine Zayak jumps to mind.  I have never seen a video that shows a clear inside edge takeoff.  I didn't watch all the videos.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/toe-loop-vs-toe-walley.89256/
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/index.php?threads/why-are-the-triple-toe-loop-and-triple-toe-walley-considered-the-same-jump.85743/

[sampaguita]

Which brings to mind another question: if the toe walley and the toe loop are considered the same jump, why would the flip and the jump be considered different?

[Doubletoe]

Which brings to mind another question: if the toe walley and the toe loop are considered the same jump, why would the flip and the jump be considered different?

They didn't want to make the toe walley a separate listed jump (probably since it just isn't considered an important jump and is rarely done as a triple), but since it's actually more difficult than the toe loop, they saw no sense in penalizing toe loops that were actually toe walleys.  And since nobody ever does toe walleys, it just hasn't been an issue.

[sampaguita]

I just realized there was a typo in my earlier post -- what I meant was the flip and the "lutz" jump.

What I really don't get is people get so worked up on flip/lutz wrong edges, but for toe loops/toe walleys, the jumps are basically considered the same...is Miki Ando (and all other lippers) just unlucky that people actually train towards the triple lutz?

[Doubletoe]

I just realized there was a typo in my earlier post -- what I meant was the flip and the "lutz" jump.

What I really don't get is people get so worked up on flip/lutz wrong edges, but for toe loops/toe walleys, the jumps are basically considered the same...is Miki Ando (and all other lippers) just unlucky that people actually train towards the triple lutz?

You have a good point; it's just that people really care about the flip and lutz being separate jumps.  Nobody cares about the toe walley because it's a totally unimportant jump that nobody does as a triple.

[sampaguita]

You have a good point; it's just that people really care about the flip and lutz being separate jumps.  Nobody cares about the toe walley because it's a totally unimportant jump that nobody does as a triple.

Too bad...adding toe walleys to skaters' repertoire would make elite skating more interesting, I think.