Ice vs Inline vs Roller Boots

[riley876]

Does anyone know what the subtle differences between the three?

I know all about articulated inline slalom boots (My current ice skate boots use these too), but I know next to nothing about normal figure/artistic boots.

I'm actually very happy with the functionality of my current frankenstein skates, but I am contemplating competing one day, and I'll probably need traditional style boots so as to not get tar'd and feather'd and run out of town by The Powers That Be (or maybe not? maybe for low level club competitions, no one will care? maybe I should just ask?).

But I haven't decided between ice, roller or artistic inline, so I'm wondering about a few things, notably:

- the relative stiffness of ice dance vs roller dance boots
- if there are major structural differences between roller vs ice/inline boots 
- what differences there are between ice and inline boots.
- what other unknown unknowns I'm missing.

[Loops]

I think most ice and roller boots are interchangeable. I know many who have done it anyway, and all the European ice boot makers have boots for roller as well....same people making them. I believe at the max stiffness in boots marketed to the roller community is less than the max for ice. Quads are more stable than blades (?).

For rocketed inlines (I'm thinking pic skates, snow whites and friends), I believe people use the same boots as their ice skates, if they have them.  Perhaps someone who does artistic inline can comment though.

[Bill_S]

I can't answer all your questions, but the boots for ice and for inline (i.e. PIC skates) are the same. I'm using some ancient (ca. 2001) Riedell Bronze Stars for my inline skates, and younger (2007) Gold Stars for ice.

I knew one person who was a serious quad roller skater, and he had Harlick boots. A quick visit to Harlick's web site showed that there is a check box for roller vs ice when ordering, but I'm not sure how that figures into things.

[riley876]

Cheers people, that helps clarify the fog a little.

Everyone who is anyone in the local roller scene seems to use Edea boots and Rollline plates.    Edea do also sell roller specific boots too, but little indication of any differences are apparent.

Also, stupid question, can anyone tell me what the practical difference between dance and free boots is?  I'm assuming it's just dance boots are less stiff?  (Dance is definitely more my thing BTW)

I'm essentially trying to hedge my bets here.  I'm not sure which discipline/scene is for me long term (given the unknown cultures of the various scenes), so I'm hoping for the flexibility to repurpose boots if my first pick doesn't work out.

[Bill_S]

Now I'm guessing here, but some boots have low back stays or Achilles notches cut into them to allow for more toe point. That's mighty important to ice dancers. That approach shouldn't compromise side stability much, and it's an option when ordering some boot models.

Another quad roller skater I knew had the top of his boot cut down by the length of one loop. He wasn't a competitor though, and I don't know anything about this approach at higher skating levels.

Is there a roller forum in which you could ask these questions? They would have more to say about it I'm sure.

[Jon-Ohio]

Roller skating forum that might be able to help  :

http://skatelogforum.com/

Jon in Ohio

[beginner skater]

I am a great believer in asking the manufacturer, they must have someone there who knows the definitive answer, and with email it's a no cost solution

[Loops]

Dance boots are cut lower on the sides and back. They're less stable than free boots imho. I do like to toe point I get out of the lower back though. My report dance boots are rated at about a 65 stiffness I think. They're stiff enough but the lower cut sides make me feel less supported relative to my old free boots, simply because my ankle can bend more over the sides.

[Query]

At one point I was told by a skate shop that sold both that most people who did both chose [quad] roller boots that were lighter and less stiff than their ice skates. Don't know if that is true. It must depend depend a lot on what types and levels of skating people are doing, not just on ice vs quad vs inline.

E.g., on ice, speed skates, hockey skates, and figure skates are a lot different, and there are different sub-categories within each of those. I tried a pair of ice blades for rugged outdoor use that clipped into XC ski boots, that was a lot different too, from skates designed for use on smooth rinks.

Some inline skates look almost like downhill ski boots, and are completely stiff and knee high, especially those used over rough terrain.

A lot of freestyle boots have low backs too, for comfort and extra toe point. E.g., Graf Edmonton Specials

http://www.grafskates.ch/skates/grafskates-kunstlauf/graf-top-level-skates/edmonton-special-v-insert/?L=1%C3%83%C6%92%C3%86%E2%80%99%C3%83%C2%A2%C3%A2%E2%80%9A%C2%AC%C3%8B%C5%93%C3%83%C6%92%C3%A2%E2%82%AC%C2%A0%C3%83%C2%A2%C3%A2%E2%80%9A%C2%AC%C3%A2%E2%80%9E%C2%A2

are top level freestyle boots. But freestyle skaters need much more sideways reinforcement to keep the foot and especially the ankle within a safe range of motion. OTH, many ice dancers want full range of motion, especially at the ankle, though you still need some stiffness to give precise edge control and placement. Also, you can't get high level freestyle stiffness and durability without more weight. Ice dance boots are usually more comfortable, given equally good fit. But if you want to jump high, even a tiny little bit high like me, there is no substitute for the support given by freestyle boots.

I've never used "slalom" inlines. But I have Roller Blades, which are articulated. They are very stiff sideways, like high level freesetyle boots, almost like downhill ski boots. So if that is what you are used to... I think you would have trouble adapting inline slalom boots to figure blades, unless you are really good with tools. But I've never tried, though I've thought about it, because they are comfortably padded. Anyway, why should you care if people think your boots look funny? At least until you compete at upper levels, and have to worry about what the judges think. Haven't you watched the movie "Go Figure," where she starts out a figure competition in hockey boots?

For inline, certain PicSkate frames are often chosen by figure skaters, especially those with ice experience, and are a lot different from other inline frame sets, but I don't have the experience to talk about them. Maybe someone here can explain better.

But until you decide what type of skating you want to do, it will be very hard to get optimal boots and blades. Why not start with rentals, take a few lessons, try several disciplines, and decide then, with the advice of your coach and your best area skate tech? But I'm confused. I thought you already were doing freestyle? (Am I thinking of a similar name for someone else?)

As you must know, many would-be figure skaters start out on hockey equipment, or on freestyle or dance equipment,  for the first few sets of lessons, regardless of what they eventually want to do. But it doesn't take long to get to the point where the right type of boots and blades makes a big difference. Nonetheless, you could take intro lessons in several categories.

[riley876]

I've never used "slalom" inlines. But I have Roller Blades, which are articulated. They are very stiff sideways, like high level freesetyle boots, almost like downhill ski boots. So if that is what you are used to... I think you would have trouble adapting inline slalom boots to figure blades, unless you are really good with tools. But I've never tried, though I've thought about it, because they are comfortably padded.

This is exactly what I have done for my current ice skates and I love the end result from both a functional and comfort point of view.   

You need to be able to mold plastic to make adapter pieces to go between the blade and boot, but that's actually way less scary in practice than it sounds.

Anyway, why should you care if people think your boots look funny? At least until you compete at upper levels, and have to worry about what the judges think.

The thing is that I don't care what people think.  I care about what the eligibility rules say.  I must admit I haven't researched the local ice rules, but I've read in the SkateNZ rules that the roller people won't allow non-traditional (i.e. non artistic) skates to be used, even for local competitions.   Much of this is I believe due to protection of the lovely perfect wooden arena floors they skate on.   Artistic skates are soft on all corners and therefore can't take gouges out of the floors.  Also, there are spoken and unspoken threads about retaining traditions.   Roller skaters are a dying breed in general, and they're closing ranks.   I've seen it on a number of front, even not being directly involved.  Even if I could rules-laywer something,  I'd still be about as welcome as a turd in a swimming pool, if I showed up with slalom skates.

Haven't you watched the movie "Go Figure," where she starts out a figure competition in hockey boots?

Ha, yes I have.   Movies are great for fantasies

For inline, certain PicSkate frames are often chosen by figure skaters, especially those with ice experience, and are a lot different from other inline frame sets, but I don't have the experience to talk about them.

I switch more or less seamlessly between inline slalom skates, and slalom boots with ice figure blades.  My slalom skates are setup to be as close to the feel of ice skates as possible, and it's very little adjustment to switch between them.  I can work on the same stuff,  with 30 mins,  with all the same successes and screwups.   If I was to pick inlining to compete in, I would probably go with PicSkates.  (and yes the rules say you have to have toe stops.   gah, even if you're doing dance).

But until you decide what type of skating you want to do, it will be very hard to get optimal boots and blades. Why not start with rentals, take a few lessons, try several disciplines, and decide then, with the advice of your coach and your best area skate tech? But I'm confused. I thought you already were doing freestyle? (Am I thinking of a similar name for someone else?)

Yes, I do already ice skate (exactly as badly as I inline skate), and have taken some privates on both ice and wheels.   Ice is not really the problem here, the equipment is pretty well known, and lots of info is available here and elsewhere,  but wheeled dance equipment is more of mystery at this stage.   Especially inline dance,  for which my (roller skating) coach wouldn't have a clue.

Dance is my thing long term.  Moving to music is the passion, and that seems secondary in freeskating, so I'm not interested in doing that (on any sort of skates).

Inline cone slalom skating sometimes going by the moniker of Inline Freestyle Skating or Freestyle Slalom Skating just Freestyle skating (in the right context), so that might be where your confusion comes in.   And if you were wondering there is exactly ZERO local scene for this.    I do do this too, but it's not on my competition radar,  for the simple reason that nothing exists in this country.   Not even sure if there's anything held even in Australia.

But anyway, all this stuff (on any sort of skates) is still years away, I'm just gathering intel for the moment.

[Query]

I know this is off-topic, but could you describe adapting inlines for figure ice use?

Obviously the wholes are in the wrong place to match ice blades. How did you drill holes in your inline boots? Have you tried it in "Roller Blades"?

Do I understand right that inlines use very short bolts with a special type of very thin nut on the top side, instead of self-tapping screws? Did you have to carve a hollow into your insole, or did you cut the bolt to the right length to not stick above the nut? Is it the same type of bolt/nut combo that some quad skates use?

What benefits do you see? My Roller Blades are much lighter than my figure skate boots, and the ski-type clip system is more convenient than laces. I should check whether I can alternate flex and point my toe in Roller Blades, and try to figure out whether the lower heal would be bad or good for turns, spins and twizzles. You tempt me to try it.

Maybe you will start a new trend.

----------

Could you simply ask a low level NZ figure skating judge whether it is likely to be a problem? Neither the ISU nor USFSA (in the U.S.) seem to regulate boots, except, on page 91 of http://static.isu.org/media/351546/2016-constitution-and-general-regulations_provisional-july-22.pdf , they give a maximum logo size, which might be a problem.  (Look at your country's rules?)

But no one I know in the figure skating community skates at tests or comps in anything that departs significantly from standard figure skating appearance. Maybe they are afraid judges would care.

If you cover your boots with white or black tape for the competition, maybe no one would know? If the boots are low enough, maybe boot covers will be enough, though boot covers sometimes pop off.

It's always possible some evil person could always tell the judges you weren't wearing "appropriate clothing", whatever that means, and ask them to disqualify you.

[riley876]

I know this is off-topic, but could you describe adapting inlines for figure ice use?

Obviously the wholes are in the wrong place to match ice blades. How did you drill holes in your inline boots? Have you tried it in "Roller Blades"?

Do I understand right that inlines use very short bolts with a special type of very thin nut on the top side, instead of self-tapping screws? Did you have to carve a hollow into your insole, or did you cut the bolt to the right length to not stick above the nut? Is it the same type of bolt/nut combo that some quad skates use?

Quality slalom (and inline speed) skates have 2 threaded inserts in the boots.  2 x 8mm screws are used to bolt the frame into these inserts, ie the bolt is "upside down".  This is actually a great scheme, because the frames have laterally slotted holes, so you can adjust the frame left-to-right as needed.    I didn't use these at all.  I simply used long 4mm bolts through new holes I drilled in the boot.  With big washers behind the bolts.  Lots more bolts than you'd need (10 per skate), because I wanted to be sure it wasn't going to pull through the plastic.    Still not sure I'd like to be jumping big with this setup, but for my relatively peaceful skating it more than does the trick.   

The hard bit is making the plastic spacers , between the blade and the boot, so the surfaces match.   I used bits chopped from polypropylene kitchen containers.   I made a mold by carving the negative into wood,  with the top and bottom of the mold connected with a hinge and with long handles attached so as to be able to apply lots of squish when heated.  Used a heat gun to get roughly shaped plastic blanks soft enough to work,  and squished them in the mold, using aluminum foil to stop it sticking to the sides. 

The pieces weren't all that complex in the end, effectively just wedges

End result here:

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=7090.msg84575#msg84575

What benefits do you see? My Roller Blades are much lighter than my figure skate boots, and the ski-type clip system is more convenient than laces. I should check whether I can alternate flex and point my toe in Roller Blades, and try to figure out whether the lower heal would be bad or good for turns, spins and twizzles. You tempt me to try it.

No blisters.  No break in.  No break down.  Comfy from day one.  Articulated cuff for easy knee bends.  Easy to tighten well.  Can be tightened in 3 different places independently.  Adjustable fit (by stuffing foam between the shell and the liner).  Boots are relatively cheap (last ones cost me all of NZ$100=US$70).  Downside is probably 150g heavier than traditional skates, and that you have to DIY it yourself!

Maybe you will start a new trend.

Ha.  I have my doubts.  Figure skating being the second most traditional sport on the face of the planet (only ballroom dancing clings more solidly to it's traditions).    The culture is conservative to the extreme, and keeping weirdos out (and resisting change in general) seems to be priority #1.   I mean even the likes of Johnny Weir, as wacky as he is/was, still conformed well to the essence of the culture.   Even if one could buy skates like I've made for myself,  TPTB would outlaw them at high level competitions soon enough.   As being "not in the spirit" or whatever. 

Could you simply ask a low level NZ figure skating judge whether it is likely to be a problem? Neither the ISU nor USFSA (in the U.S.) seem to regulate boots, except, on page 91 of http://static.isu.org/media/351546/2016-constitution-and-general-regulations_provisional-july-22.pdf , they give a maximum logo size, which might be a problem.  (Look at your country's rules?)

But no one I know in the figure skating community skates at tests or comps in anything that departs significantly from standard figure skating appearance. Maybe they are afraid judges would care.

If you cover your boots with white or black tape for the competition, maybe no one would know? If the boots are low enough, maybe boot covers will be enough, though boot covers sometimes pop off.

It's probably quite likely that for low level local ice I'm OK.   I will ask my ex-coach at the next opportunity.  I have no problems taping off any logos.   I suspect the roller/inline people are going to care a whole lot more.

I honestly have no idea if being subtly judged down is likely, but I'm not sure I care even if that's the case.   Winning isn't actually the point.

It's always possible some evil person could always tell the judges you weren't wearing "appropriate clothing", whatever that means, and ask them to disqualify you.

Ha!  The thought that I could become worthy enough competition to someone to even consider playing dirty simply does not compute, but it actually makes a nice fantasy

[Query]

I simply used long 4mm bolts through new holes I drilled in the boot.  With big washers behind the bolts...

Beautiful, elegant solution!

I'm embarrassed I imagined the bolts upside down. Your way is so much better.

And a great way to quickly interchange freestyle and dance blades, or mail one of two pair of blades to your chosen skate tech for sharpening. A much better solution than using self tapping screws, like most skate techs use, which strip holes so easily.

Maybe a professional job would use flat top countersink bolts, with countersunk holes, so the top of the bolts wouldn't impinge on the feet, no matter how thin the insoles.

The washers - they are above the nuts, and maintain pressure during temperature changes and shock, so the bolts don't loosen, right? (A trick an electrician taught me. When he wants things more permanent, he double-nuts - tightens two nuts against each other - instead.) Perhaps they also prevent electrolysis and rust?

The hard bit is making the plastic spacers , between the blade and the boot, so the surfaces match.

My current solution to making boot and blade shape match is cloth tape. A few overlapping layers, strategically employed, stuck to the top side of the blade (when the skate is right side up), produces a perfect match. Very fast, very easy to redo. White cloth athletic tape worked great, but matching color cloth tape looks better - found mine at the dollar store.

[riley876]

Maybe a professional job would use flat top countersink bolts, with countersunk holes, so the top of the bolts wouldn't impinge on the feet, no matter how thin the insoles.

Yes, they are countersunk heads, and the holes in the washers are just big enough to that the bulk of the countersunk head sits in the hole of the washer,  thus requiring very little countersinking of the actual boot.   The whole of the washer still sits above the surface, but at least it's a big area.   I use thick cork wedge insoles anyway to help with my ankle anomalies.

The washers - they are above the nuts, and maintain pressure during temperature changes and shock, so the bolts don't loosen, right? (A trick an electrician taught me. When he wants things more permanent, he double-nuts - tightens two nuts against each other - instead.) Perhaps they also prevent electrolysis and rust?

I've used nylocs.  Had to tweak them tighter once so far after the first skate, but they have stayed tight ever since.

My current solution to making boot and blade shape match is cloth tape. A few overlapping layers, strategically employed, stuck to the top side of the blade (when the skate is right side up), produces a perfect match. Very fast, very easy to redo. White cloth athletic tape worked great, but matching color cloth tape looks better - found mine at the dollar store.

That is a nice easy solution.  But one concern I'd have is weight, another that is that it might compress over time loosening the bolts (not that that's the end of the world).

[riley876]

Have been doing some soul searching over this.  I've come to the conclusion that I'd hate competing anyway.  I can just imagine myself all dressed up, waiting for my name to be called,  wondering who/what the **** I was doing this for?.   So some random bunch of strangers can hold up a random number saying how badly I conform to some arbitrary standard?     When it gets down to it, I'm only really interested in the social aspects anyway,  and that going to be sparse in competitions anyway.   I think I'm way better off picking up swing dancing again for that.

[Query]

Oh, so the washer is next to the bolt head. And it helps keep out water. And locks the bolt against excess motion.

If you used countersunk nuts, and rubber washers at the bottom, maybe that would have helped too?

When skate techs use self-tapping screws, they start with the oblong sliding holes to get the offset/alignment/balance right. Assuming you didn't want to fill your boots with too many holes to fill, did you just have to guess instead of using the oblong holes?

As to weight, it probably depends on how much adjustment you need. I've seen no compression with cloth tape (medical professionals use cloth athletic tape for similar purposes, in athletic shoes), but I haven't had to deal with more than a few hundredths of an inch adjustment. If you are worried about weight, your adjustment must be more. Some skate techs sand the bottom of skates to make them approximately match.

[riley876]

Oh, so the washer is next to the bolt head. And it helps keep out water. And locks the bolt against excess motion.

If you used countersunk nuts, and rubber washers at the bottom, maybe that would have helped too?

Can't say I'm at all worried about keeping water out.  Nothing is going to rot, and if the bolts are zinc plated, so relatively rust resistant.  And easily replaceable.   The reason for big washers is to simply stop the bolt heads pulling through the plastic shell.

When skate techs use self-tapping screws, they start with the oblong sliding holes to get the offset/alignment/balance right. Assuming you didn't want to fill your boots with too many holes to fill, did you just have to guess instead of using the oblong holes?

Yes, lack of adjustability is a potential problem with this scheme, though I suppose I could slot (all) the holes on the blade if necessary.  In the end I just copied the frame position from my inline skates and it seems close enough to not bug me at all.    For some reason ice blade alignment seems less critical than inline.  I think because I'm much closer to the ground (my inlines put my heel nearly 120mm i.e. 5" off the ground).

[riley876]

Possibly interesting factoid I just found out:

Roller plates are flat, hence dedicated roller boots have flat bottoms (i.e. heel surface and front are planar),  unlike ice/inline boots.

Aparently Edea sell adapter wedges though.

[Bill_S]

That's something that I had forgotten about since I mounted my PIC skates (flat bottom) onto Reidell Bronze Stars way back in 2001 or 2002. The Riedell boots were traditional ice boots with the sole and the heel plate oriented at different angles.

When mounting my inline plate, the mounting screws pulled the boot close (but not flush at first), and subsequent retightenings eventually pulled the toe section flat against the plate. It's not the best way to do it though, but it worked over time.

[riley876]

So, I found a $10 pair of knackered ice skates. Unrivetted the blades, and bolted on my old roller plates.

Et voila!  One pair of "artistic roller skates".  They were white, but since I have an aversion to looking like I'm wearing meatworker's gumboots, I fixed that.  One $12 bottle of leather dye later, they are now (more or less) black.

Needed to make my own plastic wedges to match the ice sole to the roller plate, but that wasn't too hard.



Boat anchors.  1660g each. (vs about 900g for ice skates).   

I've already taken them for their maiden voyage.  I used to skate these plates 5 years ago, but with speed/derby style boots (i.e. with no heel whatsoever).  I was very very bad back then, so I never got much past simply skating around the rink.   

My initial (re)foray yesterday was a very humbling experience.  Like being a newbie skater all over again.   Learn to skate all over again from scratch.  It's a very different feel.  On ice/inline you simple body lean to steer.  But on rollers you have to match your ankle/boot lean to your body lean, or else unexpected/unwanted things happen.   I initially found them worryingly incapable of turning tight enough to "save myself", but I did get better after a while.  These are very turny and short plates (relative to other roller plates, very similar steering geometry to top end $500+ roll line dance/ring plates), so they're definitely "loop capable", which I've started working my way towards.    After about an hour I did manage forward power pulls, which is something I couldn't really do on inlines/ice at the beginning of the year.   So on that basis I think it'll all come fairly quickly.   Three turns, however, I suspect will be probably a year away at least.   Threes on rollers have a reputation as being relatively hard.   

Later in the session, I went back to inlines, and found I'd entirely messed up my instincts.  Like I couldn't skate on them at all!   Took half a hour to get my mojo back (such as it is).   Actually rather worrying just how easily it all got erased.   Once I had it all back, it actually felt better than before,  like my body lean/weight placement was more accurate.  I'm convinced they've taught me something useful already.

The grossly broken-downness of the boots doesn't seem to a problem.  Roller skates don't need ankle support to be safe (unlike ice/inlines), and at my level they're supportive enough.

I still don't know what I'm going to do with them.  I sort of but also sort-of-not want to compete.   But anyway, simply as a learning tool, they've already been useful.   So worthwhile even if I never get serious with them.