Progressives vs Crossovers?

[riley876]

Progressive Run vs Crossovers.

Just a terminology difference, or technique difference?

"Progressive Run"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nv5ujdWn0qI

"Forward Crossovers"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNedknuKF9g

[amy1984]

To me, that first video is wrong.  That's a crossover.  A progressive is a quick set of steps that doesn't quite cross over.

[riley876]

Ah I see.

Anyone got a link to a clip showing how progressives are supposed to be done?

[Ellessbee]

Think this clip explains backward progressives well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6jY5u0rpoE

This clip shows forward progressives in different holds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_ckVzdkhjI

Kseniya and Oleg have recorded lots of excellent videos. Their youtube channel is worth watching.

[riley876]

Are my eyes deceiving me when I see those forward progressives as exactly the same?  i.e. with a definite cross over?

[Bill_S]

I once had a dance coach who was determined to teach proper progressives to me.

To paraphrase her, the free foot advances forward but strikes the ice before the foot crosses over in front of the skating foot. It is smoothly placed on the ice, and glides past the skating foot into the cross. It looks less "lumpy" than a foot plonked down onto the ice ahead of the skating foot.

A progressive is a "grown up" crossover.

[icedancer]

This is true.  It is very subtle.

If you watch the videos you can see that Kysenia places her foot OVER her ankle on the cross-over - in the progressives the free foot is placed more forward on the ice next to the skating foot.

When they are doing them together - in hold - watch Oleg's feet when they are in waltz position (facing one another - she is doing backwards progressives) - here Oleg seems to be placing his free foot ahead of and to the right of his skating foot.  I think it is more conscious here because he does not want to run into her feet at all.

I always think with these two that their movements are more exaggerated because they are very high level competitive ice dancers (compared to the rest of us - social dancers, etc.) - so while they are beautiful to watch and technically excellent (and nice people) - I don't expect that most of us will ever look quite like that!

[riley876]

Like what Nick Perna is advocating in that Memphis Skating Club Youtube clip?

So, if you were to always do progressives like this and never do lumpy crossovers at all would anyone mark you down for it?

[icedancer]

Like what Nick Perna is advocating in that Memphis Skating Club Youtube clip?

So, if you were to always do progressives like this and never do lumpy crossovers at all would anyone mark you down for it?

Not sure which youtube clip you are referringt to...

No, but some ice dance judges may comment on skaters doing blatant lumpy crossovers instead of smooth progressives on ice dance tests.

I doubt if in freestyle anyone would notice as the forward cross-overs are not used much in freestyle programs except as a way to get from here to there.  If they are particularly well-done (or poorly done, as the case may be) you may get negative PCS scores in the "skating skills" category.

[riley876]

Not sure which youtube clip you are referringt to...

Sorry, I figured since I posted it in another thread recently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC7E1OC7lr8

[icedancer]

Well, that is interesting.

Good video - showing the two-footed slalom cross - where the knees are bent, etc.

Also tru that the free foot needs to pigeon-toe as it goes across and in front.

And I never noticed that Michelle Kwan didn't pick up her right foot when doing forward cross-overs - doing them more like back cross-overs - interesting demo.  I pretty much do forward cross-overs like like when skating them across the end during forward stroking drills - I thought it was wrong and that I just couldn't get my weight all the way over to my left leg anymore on that large end pattern.  Now I know that I am doing them just like Michelle Kwan!

[sampaguita]

I think some good crossovers are just good progressives.

When my dance coach taught me progressives, he explicitly told me to put the free foot on the ice BESIDE the skating foot, not in front. The (previously) free foot then slides forward, while the (original) skating foot slides to the side. Later on, he said I could put it a little bit more forward by bending the (original) skating knee more.

This creates the tracing that you usually see in dance patterns, where the tracing of both feet don't intersect in a progressive.

[riley876]

And I never noticed that Michelle Kwan didn't pick up her right foot when doing forward cross-overs

I've just re-watched a few of her LPs, and I didn't see anything but clunky forward crossovers.   Quite frankly a little disappointing for her level of ability (though of course still miles better than mine).

It's funny.  As your own abilities improve you start seeing the flaws in your previously perfect heroes.  That said, I'd still kill to have Mao Asada's Triple Flutz 

[icedancer]

I've just re-watched a few of her LPs, and I didn't see anything but clunky forward crossovers.   Quite frankly a little disappointing for her level of ability (though of course still miles better than mine).

It's funny.  As your own abilities improve you start seeing the flaws in your previously perfect heroes.  That said, I'd still kill to have Mao Asada's Triple Flutz 

Re: Michelle Kwan - maybe I couldn't hear the Nick Perna video that well but I thought he said this is how she did the forward crosses to gain speed in her programs.

Yes it's true the more you learn the more you see the flaws.  It's an unfortunate fact actually - but when you see an amazing performance, it is truly AMAZING. The more you know (as it were) -