I need a change in boot, big time

[Sk8Lady82]

Hi everyone,

I've been skating on Jackson Elites a long time. I've been through several pairs of them over the years and through a couple models. When I moved over seas my skates were shipped via transport and didn't travel on the plane with me. Yes, I already know that letting them ride over on a big boat for months was a bad idea. At first I believed that the heat was responsible and remolding them would fix things. (We won't even discuss the blades.) I reheat molded them. I then was having problems with my feet going numb within minutes. So after some clever advice we blasted them with a hairdryer with golf balls in the toes and let them cool overnight. It gave me the needed space. The problem now is the arch cramping. If you guessed because I am over working my toes trying to cling to my skates you are most likely correct. Even after pressing my heels in they are totally lifting. So much so that on my first jump attempt since returning to the ice I thought I was going to lose my skate. I tried adjusting the laces and came out with the same results.

Now, on to the discussion. I live in Seoul and there is 1 major sales rep for the entire country that handles boots above basic skills. It has been a battle trying to get in touch with him and it seems he ONLY carries Jackson and Edea. When I told him I was having problems with my Elites he immediately starting trying to push the Ice Fly on me. Without ever seeing my foot shape or talking to me about what I wanted. My confidence was not restored when he told me that it's what "all the skaters are wearing."

In speaking with the guy I actually trust to sharpen my skates he is encouraging me to buy new boots from the US or Canada and have them shipped in. He said he could mount my blades and help me adjust them to where I needed them. He no longer fits skates it would seem. UGH.

I was looking at Gam or Graf because the ball of my foot is wide and my heel in comparison is rather narrow. I hate the idea of skating in something I can't try on but I'm sort of stuck between a rock and a hard place. With the Olympics coming in 2018 I look for more vendors to get out here for fittings but that does nothing to help now. I love the stiffness of my Elites because since gaining weight I feel like I have the needed support. Bend and flex have never really been an issue for me. The Edeas may be wonderful skates but I don't want to wear them just because that is my only option or it's what all the skaters here are doing. I will take a well fitting comfortable skate over popular any day.

Who is skating on Gams, Grafs, or the Ice Fly right now? Do any of you have a wide ball, narrowish/average heel, and a high arch? I am a heavy skater. (Plus sized at this point) If there is another brand you have experience with  that might be a good fit I am open to looking into it.   

[Loops]

I feel your pain.  My situation here in France is slightly better in terms of brand availability, but about the same in terms of skate dealer knowledge and my confidence in them.

So I'm here to tell you that you are not alone, I'm still waiting to hear if I can get split width jacksons over here.  But its more and more likely that I'll try to buy skates this summer when I'm in the US.  No idea how that's going to work timing-wise.  Sounds like you're in dire straights for this go around, but it's something to think about for the future.  If you know that off the shelf jacksons will work for you, why don't you try the edeas on, see how they feel, and then if necessary order from the US.

I have a similar shaped foot to yours (minus the high arch), and wound up with Risports.  After taking them back to the US to have my tech there punch out the balls, and some unorthodox lacing techniques, they're fine fit wise.  I'm not too keen on the IceFly, although after reading what others have written about it, I'm not as opposed to trying it as I once was.  I did try on a pair of  Edea Flamenco's, they were too wide in the heel, but apparently the IceFlys are more adjustable.  A lot of people at my rink (one who is plus sized) are in Grafs and like them.  My feet did not.

Someone has recommended I try Belati boots.  They're an italian brand, reasonably available over here with a last more accommodating to the narrow heel/wider ball.  Not sure how available they are in Korea....

Golly, good luck with this. 

[Loops]

[facepalm] Something to try in the meantime......can you get silipos gel sleeves?  I'm having heel slippage problems too, but mine are just starting. I wear these sleeves down over my heel.  It helps a lot.  I bet you could even double up and wear two sleeves one one top of another.  You could also try the old fashioned technique of the circle shaped make-up sponges tucked into strategic places......

And/or maybe some superfeet to help take up the extra space?  You've probably already thought of that though......

[fsk8r]

I have very narrow heels so deal with heel slippage after a year or so of wearing skates. I wear silipos boot bumpers. It helps fill the gap and stops the heel slippage (and blisters).

And I also come from a country where you can't try before you buy. I've got a pair of grafs for free and jackson synchro for dance. The synchro boot is very very similar in boot shape to my old jackson elites (same last I would guess). I find the grafs are too narrow in the forefoot (I bought medium width). I could have bought wide, but then I suspected I'd have heel slippage issues. Now I've got the width fitting right at the front from wearing down the padding, I've going towards heel slippage at the back. I've decided I need to go to split width, but that's quite a risk when they can probably not be returned when they don't fit right...

[tstop4me]

In your instance, the best option appears to be to stick with the Jackson Elite:  (1) your previous experience with them were good, (2) you know your size, and (3) you don't have access to a competent fitter.  Jackson has instructional videos on their website.  One of them is on fitting.  It specifically states that the advanced Jackson boots are fitted on split lasts, with the heel one width narrower than the toe:  for example, a D width across the toes is mated to a C width across the heel.  I too have a narrow heel:  for about the past year I have been skating with men's Jackson Elite suede (model numbers for men's line are different from those for women's line; this model is one down from their top-of-the-line Elite Supreme); I've been very happy with the fit. 

The widths are only two (out of many) parameters that determine whether the boot is the proper mate for you.  Even if another model has the same widths you need, you may require a longer transition period if you switch.  My previous boot was an old pair of Riedell Royals.  The Royals were a 9N; the Elites are a 8W; consequently, the blade length went from an 11" to a 10-1/2", and I had to retune my moves.  The Royals had a high arch support; the Elites have none; consequently, I had to add arch supports to the Elites.  The Elites have a much higher heel than the Royals; consequently, I had to re-learn my back edges.  When I first switched to the Elites, I tended to rise up on my toes when skating backwards (but, curiously, no problems when skating forwards); consequently, I had to lean further back.  My skate tech told me this was typical.  He also mentioned in passing that the Ice Fly has an even higher heel pitch than the Elite:  it's not obvious from looking at the exterior of the boot, the heel is further raised inside the boot of the Ice Fly.  So, if you want minimal disruption to your routines, replace what you have, if you are otherwise happy with them.

[Sk8Lady82]

Thank you Loops, it is always nice to know I am not alone in the madness. I'll totally do some research on Belatis and see what I can find out. I have mutilated a few pairs of superfeet. I have Gel sleeves on order from the states but it can take a while for things to get here. The hubby is going to see what he can cut down and shape out of a couple yoga mats that might work in the mean time.

fsk8r I almost ended up in a pair of Grafs this last time but due to a shipping issue and me pulling apart the heel on my Jacksons at the time I knew I could walk in and my tech would have my 5D stocked and ready. Pulling apart might not have been the right word. Disintegrated the leather of the heel. Anyway, I took another pair of Elites. My tech molded them, removed my blades and remounted them to the new skate. I was out the door and on them the next day.

tstop4me You're probably right. I might poke at the tech here and see if he would order me the split last. He's already irritated that I made him order me another pair of phantoms instead of the matrix he wanted me to buy. I'm sort of surprised that none of the techs I've seen have never mentioned that I could get the split last in Jackson. Thanks for the heads up. When I transitioned from a boot made in what was Czechoslovakia to my first set of Jacksons it was a huge adjustment. Since then it has really only been breaking them in.   

[amy1984]

Who is skating on Gams, Grafs, or the Ice Fly right now? Do any of you have a wide ball, narrowish/average heel, and a high arch? I am a heavy skater. (Plus sized at this point) If there is another brand you have experience with  that might be a good fit I am open to looking into it.

I've skated on Gam and Jackson, which are the same company.  If you do okay in Jacksons, you'll do okay in Gam's.  Both of these brands lasted me quite awhile over the course of various weights - from slim to not so slim!  As for the measurement of your feet, I think I'm somewhat close.  The only thing I've found to help with the instep over numerous brands was lacing loose over the instep.  As for the narrow heel and the wider ball, I would say Jackson was better for that.  My heel slipped a bit in my Gam's.  If you are already paying a premium to have these skates shipped to you, maybe consider adding a split width. Keep in mind that Gam (and Jackson) are Canadian companies.  I know they exist in Europe but it's possible that European brands might be better priced overseas than the Canadian/American brands if that makes sense.

I guess my advice would be to stick with Jackson if that's working for you.  If you want a switch, Gam would probably be closest to Jackson (and down a bit in price).

[Query]

When I told him I was having problems with my Elites he immediately starting trying to push the Ice Fly on me. Without ever seeing my foot shape or talking to me about what I wanted. My confidence was not restored when he told me that it's what "all the skaters are wearing."

But he may be just about right, for his shop. If he pushes Edea, "all his skaters" end up on Edeas.   Surprise!

[tstop4me]

tstop4me You're probably right. I might poke at the tech here and see if he would order me the split last. He's already irritated that I made him order me another pair of phantoms instead of the matrix he wanted me to buy. I'm sort of surprised that none of the techs I've seen have never mentioned that I could get the split last in Jackson. Thanks for the heads up. When I transitioned from a boot made in what was Czechoslovakia to my first set of Jacksons it was a huge adjustment. Since then it has really only been breaking them in.

Here is the link to the Jackson videos:

http://www.jacksonultima.com/en/ContentPage.aspx?SitePageId=1Gm3i0Fx27Tbgd6kv9UKGg1A2B3C4D5E1A2B3C4D5E

In particular, check out the video on the Elite series.  I don't know how old your Elites are.  According to the video, current Elites are standardly fitted on split lasts (heel one width narrower than toes); used to require a custom order, according to the video.  If you need an even narrower heel, that would be a custom order at extra cost and longer delivery time, according to my skate tech (didn't confirm this directly with Jackson, though).  (1)  You can contact Jackson with your old model and size and ask them whether the sizing is compatible with the current model.  (2)  Too bad your skate tech is pushing Edeas.  But if he's an authorized Jackson dealer, he should be able to measure and trace your feet properly and send the results to Jackson for sizing (that's how I was fitted; even in the States, it's hard to find a retailer that stocks a variety of boots in a variety of sizes for you to try on ... especially men's!).  Good luck!

[Sk8Lady82]

All right, I broke the tech's brain. So he stared at my Jackson's for a long time inspecting them then went to old catalogs. I'm skating on some level of Elite released in 05/06. They are way stiffer then the elite that is out now. He only had a supreme in men's but the stiffness was pretty close to what I have now. My last is completely a D width and not split width. What is weird is there is no markings indicating it is a Jackson or an elite other than the sole and the made in Canada tag that I never bothered with cutting out. They weigh a ton compared to the modern Jacksons but they are way lighter than some of the other models out there.

He had me put them on and skate in them mainly because how could a big girl like me possibly be a skater. (Sometimes being in a country where the average weight of a woman 5'3" is 94-106 pounds can be hard. I wear a size 16 which is roughly an XL in the US. Here I am a 4x or 5X in clothes.) Anyway, I skated, jumped a few times, did a flying camel and ended with a grin. When I came back and pulled off my skates my heel was missing skin, my ankle bones already bruising, and I was losing feeling in toes on my right foot. (Maybe 30 min on the ice.)

He doesn't stock Jackson Elites for women because he puts all his female clients in Edeas when they get to my level because they struggle too much with the break in and flexibility in the knees. I said maybe if they are struggling to get deep in their knees or control they were in boots too high a level for them? (If multiple clients are all having the same problem of boots being too stiff...) So I tried on both the Ice Fly and the Concerto.

I thought the heel height would be an issue but it didn't seem to be. They offer great mobility in the ankle. They just feel weird to me though and I think I would want to pick the crystals out of them. The flex is nice but I'm not sure I feel like they would support me if that makes sense. I really press hard into my boots and have to trust them when I'm holding an edge and I'm not sure I get that feeling from the Edeas. That being said I can totally understand why they have gained popularity. I'm just not sure I'm sold.

After all that the tech did conclude the skates I am wearing now do fit me horribly. My instep is quite high and even though my ball measures needing a C width he can understand why I have been put in a D. If you have to press down the arch it has to go somewhere. He told he will order me any boot from the Jackson/Gam lines I would like but if I order it I have to buy it. He thinks my best best would be the Ice Fly or make a trip to Hong Kong or Japan for a Harlick fitting.

Soooooo yeah. That's where I am at now. I think I may try ordering a couple pairs of Jackson and Gam boots from a US or Japanese retailer and returning the ones that don't fit. I'm looking at the Jackson Elite 4200 and 4500 along with the Gam Silver Label. (Do the Gam's come with the split lasts?)

Hope everyone had a great weekend and that your weeks to come are just as wonderful.

[tstop4me]

He doesn't stock Jackson Elites for women because he puts all his female clients in Edeas when they get to my level because they struggle too much with the break in and flexibility in the knees. I said maybe if they are struggling to get deep in their knees or control they were in boots too high a level for them? (If multiple clients are all having the same problem of boots being too stiff...) So I tried on both the Ice Fly and the Concerto.

I thought the heel height would be an issue but it didn't seem to be. They offer great mobility in the ankle. They just feel weird to me though and I think I would want to pick the crystals out of them. The flex is nice but I'm not sure I feel like they would support me if that makes sense. I really press hard into my boots and have to trust them when I'm holding an edge and I'm not sure I get that feeling from the Edeas. That being said I can totally understand why they have gained popularity. I'm just not sure I'm sold.

Just a word of caution here.  You can't judge the impact of heel height just from trying them on:  you have to actually skate with them.  When I first got my Jacksons, they didn't feel funny when I first tried them on, and they didn't feel funny when I skated forwards (straight glides, inside edges, outside edges, cross-overs,  ....).  But the second I tried to skate backwards (even a simple 2-foot glide), whoa!  I was rising up on my toes.  I asked my skate tech (who's also a coach and ex-pro and ex-competitor skater) whether my mounting was out of whack.  He said no, that was also his experience.  I had to lean back a lot further.  Took me about 8 sessions or so, but then all was fine.  Apparently, for high-end boots, manufacturers now believe that a higher heel pitch helps with jumps.  Hope your odyssey has a happy ending!