transitioning to dance boots

[Loops]

Hello all,

About 4 months ago I got new skates, and ended up in dance boots.  I'm starting to notice some things and wonder if it's normal adjustment? 

At first the boots were absolutely fine- I could bend forward, do what I needed to do and all was hunky dory.  Now they're broken in and I feel like I have no lateral support.  For example, when I commit to an edge, especially an outside, I can too easily go all the way down and hit the ice with the side of my boot.  I've NEVER had this problem before; my hips are NOT HAPPY WITH ME.  I got reasonably stiff boots- the Risport Dance, stiffer than the Jackson Finesse, but not as stiff as the Jackson Elite Dance,  but they just never feel tight/supportive enough. I'm ripping my fingers up pulling the laces as tight as humanly possible over my instep/ankle. They are significantly lower than my old freestyle boots.  I love the extra extension and toe point I can get out if them as a result, and didn't think that the height at the sides would make this big a difference, especially since I'm not really jumping.  I'm looking into getting tongue hooks put on (a la Jackson Elite series) to help with tongue slip.  I will admit though that the extra support I think I can eek out of those extra hooks is an attractive benefit.

Is this just me realising that my ankles are weak and need some more time/exercise?  Or could it be mental?  They're good boots, certainly solid enough.  I'm committed to them at least another year or 2.  Any thoughts/advice?  Anyone else make this transition and experience something like this?

[AgnesNitt]

I had the same experience with the Jackson Finesse. The heel counter opened up after about 6 months and I went back to my freestyle boots. The heel counter on my freestyle boots has opened up, but for now I've got all that extra shaft to keep the foot in there. New boots on order.

[icedancer]

I don't have the same dance boot as you but I have to say that I have never felt all that comfortable in my SP Teri dance boots (circa 2005) - and maybe for some of the same reasons - I can commit to outside edges okay but there is something very unstable about them - I have been complaining about these boots for YEARS but haven't really gotten any answers - I think they are too stiff still even after almost 8 years in them!   

I have heard these things about lateral support before - some boots are apparently better than others - also something that not everyone will/can talk about - most people just look at me ike I am insane or just a crazy old adult skater!

For me although I can totally commit to an outside edge - let's say LFO edge - fine - swing rolls, figures, etc., are fine, but when I go to do any of the outside mohawks, closed or open - I just feel totally uncomfortable and cannot commit to the turn.  This also happens with the FI closed choctaw (Blues' choctaw) - I have blamed the boots, the blades, ME - what is it???

Anyway, you have raised an interesting question - not sure what the answer is!

[Loops]

AgnesNitt, my heel is snug- that's the whole reason I'm in a Risport as opposed to a Jackson (well, also that the finesse weren't solid enough, but the Elite was like a friggin rock).  I have narrow heels to begin with and with what everyone has said about the heels in Jacksons.........

But, I'm not the only one then? That makes me feel a little better. I saw a few of my boot in Sochi, so I'm feeling like its me.  My left edges aren't quite as bad as my right, but I am a leftie, so I'm thinking that ankle might still be a little stronger from my jumping days.  Most of my swing rolls are ahem, flatter than they should be.  Maybe I should bust out the old boots and see.  The blades scare me on those though.....end of their life......

My mohawks also feel a bit unstable, but it's nothing compared to my outside edges.  Admittedly, I haven't tried any open mohawks, and I've never actually learned a choctaw!  I will be doing the mohawk at the next opportunity.

Icedancer- $50 question- when you get new boots, will you stick with a dance model?  AgnesNitt has already said she went back, so I'm curious what you think.

[sarahspins]

Lateral support is a very personal thing - not every skater is the same, and thus not every boot is going to work well for every skater.  Not all "dance" boots are the same either.  SP Teri's in particular come to mind - their stock dance boot not significantly different from a freestyle boot unless you ask for certain modifications.

That you are feeling a lack of lateral support after only 4 months would concern me - I know you intended to be in these boots for a couple of years, but I'm going to cautiously suggest that is probably not a realistic expectation if you are already noticing a problem.  I'd start considering other options.

[Query]

I was taught that good ice dancers should let the side of the boot touch the ice - especially on an underpush from a progressive or cross-over, but also sometimes on deep edges.

It is also common for ice dancers to want boots that do not substantially interfere with the range of motion. Thats because many of us were taught to pronate and supinate (i.e., bend sideways at an ankle) when starting a new lobe, especially on a cross roll or cross step, in order to create deeper edges.

Freestyle skaters have to fight potentially high sideways forces that occur during jump take-offs and landings, whereas even high level ice dance doesn't include high jumps. Stiff boots help limit freestyle skaters to a safe range of motion. Personally, for ice dance, I only want the stiffness needed to control the blade and prevent excessively rapid breakdown.

But you obviously aren't happy, so you boots were the wrong boots for you.

I don't know all the reasons, but lots of ice dancers on this board, as well as at least one of my former coaches, use freestyle boots for ice dance. Maybe you would be happier in freestyle boots too?

[icedancer]

Loops - what blade did you get?  I always wonder if it is the boots or the blades!!

Glad to hear that SP Teri Dance boot is almost like a freestyle boot - my old SP Teri SuperTeri was from 1990 - before all of the heat molding stuff - they lasted 15 years.

Then in 2005 I decided it was time for a new pair and so I got the dance boot - it has the flex notch and is maybe slightly lower in the back. 

They have always felt "different" - unstable somehow.  Maybe they are too big (and now I have lost 20 pounds and so yeah, they are probably too big... but what other boots would I get - if I could afford them? Not sure at this point.

I keep trying different things to make them work - adding or subtracting insoles, Superfeet, etc. - have tried different (dance) blades - it is a work in progress and of course as you get older (I am 59) your body changes somewhat and you have limited flexibility in your feet, knees and back - at least I do - and so how much does that contribute as well?

Good discussion.

[AgnesNitt]

Might I suggest strengthening the feet and ankles?

I used to have very bad pronation (due to a short metatarsal) but through exercise I strengthened my feet enough that I no longer have pronation when I skate, nor do I need to have any adjustments in my boots or blades.

[icedancer]

Moi?

[Query]

A couple more ideas:

If you are ripping up your fingers pulling the laces tight, get lace pullers! If your shoe store doesn't have them, try eBay. I trust, BTW, that you are pulling the laces tight all over, starting from the bottom lace holes, and locking each layer by putting fingers over each pair of holes while you tighten the next layer. (But not so tight that your feet go numb.)

If there is any space inside the boot (places where the boot isn't tight around the foot), fill them with moleskin or other adhesive foam. (Though I'd never want the toes too snug, as the doctors talk of bad medical things that happen to too snugly fit toes.)

A lot of freestyle skaters and hockey players want extra space in front of and behind the ankle on top, so they don't have to bend their super stiff boots when the flex and point. There is no consensus, but a lot of people in softer boots want it snug all over - just like you would like in high top tennis shoes (but much snugger than tennis shoes).

If all else fails, you could ask your boot seller and Risport itself whether they can be rebuilt stiffer. Most boots that aren't just one thin layer can be, for something like $60 or 70 a pair, plus shipping.

---

After I got Klingbeil dance boots, which were way too stiff for ME (I will always be a low level skater), and hurt from poor fit (I blame the fitter, not Klingbeil), I briefly tried barely used Risports. They were pretty low level boots, but were heat mold-able, so I did that, and did what else I needed to make them fit. I loved the way they felt, at first. But they broke down over 2 - 3 weeks, in maybe 25 - 50 skating hours. I went back to the over-stiff Klingbeils, which took almost a dozen years and a few thousand hours to break down. Could Risport boots be less durable than other brands?

[Loops]

Thanks everyone for the suggestions!  I was at a competition all day yesterday, so am just getting back to this.  I haven't had a chance to  compare on ice with my old skates, or try any of the moves.  Its not a mohawk, but I did pay attention to my step forwards during practice and the performance yesterday, and they are stable- in fact I feel like they're easier.

I feel like I need to clarify, I do not dislike the boots generally- they have some good qualities, and absolutely are stiff enough, without being too stiff.  I'm wondering if this experience I'm having is part of the growing pains of the new boot shape.  If I'm still feeling this way in a year, then I'll consider that this is the wrong boot model for me.  4 months is too short a time for the amount of skating I'm doing. 

I think my perceived lack of support has to more to do with the lower height than stiffness.   As I think Query mentioned, I now have more range of motion just above my ankle.  This is definitely something dancers want- I think of a fighter jet (my son's passion right now....) they're much more unstable than a 747, and as a result much more maneuverable.  I see a parallel with the dance boots. I do touch the ice when I point the underfoot for a progressive or a crossover.  I'm not comfortable with it now, and if I do that in synchro at high speed (I'm always on the end so getting whipped around), I usually go down.  I need to sort out how to deal with that.  My problem with my basic edges has as much to do, I think, with body position and alignment (I have a new body shape after 25 years and 2 babies), BUT when I do commit to the edge (drop my ankle "a little") I end up going MUCH lower than I am used too.  Hence my feeling of instability, and my question about transitioning.

AgnesNitt- I agree with you, this was actually the first thing I thought of, and was wondering if anyone else would mention it.  I finally looked for and found some ideas on this front- I've started the ones that are easy to do while watching TV, or a skating competition, but not the others.  I have links to several videos from the ballet world if anyone else is interested.  Only time will tell if that helps.

Icedancer- I have Vision Synchro blades.  They're fine.  I'll start looking at them and alignment issues if the ankle/foot exercises don't make a difference by next fall.  Did you notice that changing blades made a difference?

I'm really interested in other people's experiences though.  I wanted the extra toe-point and extension, but wasn't expecting the other results.  There's no room in these skates for insoles- at least not until I can get them stretched in the front, hopefully when I find a cobbler who can do that, they can also put the hooks on the tongue.  Sucks not having a decent skate shop.  I'm experimenting with home-made katz straps to help keep the laces tight at the top. 

[Query]

What is a "katz strap"?

[Loops]

http://www.katstrapz.com/

They work surprisingly well, especially for their designed purposes but are too easy to lose (I keep doing it). 

[AgnesNitt]

http://www.katstrapz.com/

They work surprisingly well, especially for their designed purposes but are too easy to lose (I keep doing it).

I always use the Katstrapz carabiner and hook it to my bag. If you've lost that, you can get a bunch of them in different sizes at the Dollar store for a dollar. A larger one could hook to just about any handle.