Messing with blades

[Iceturtle]

I'm a beginner adult skater and want to get some advice on adjusting my blades to compensate for some pre-existing physical limitations.  First off, I have the most basic skates - they are Riedell 121 RS.  The sole is plastic but the blades are attached with screws not rivets.  The pro-shop already switched them out for a smaller size after I had trouble with the original skates, I put in super-feet insoles and added some padding to the inside of my right insole to help align my foot better in that skate.  This has all made a difference, but not enough of one.  I thought I was getting my outside edges on my right foot, but I'm not, I'm skidding round the circle!  I have adjusted the blades as far as possible on the right boot.  When I am skating in a straight line, the outside of my foot isn't even pressing on the sole of the boot forcing me to lean just to skate in a straight line and I can feel the blade fighting me and trying to skid out.  There is a noticeable difference between my right and left foot (left foot not perfect, but much more evenly balanced).  I found I could only adjust the blade by a fraction of a millimeter which explains why the pro-shop said they couldn't adjust the blades on these boots.  Has anyone had experience adjusting the blades on plastic soled boots?  If so, what did you try and what were the results?

[FigureSpins]

I only know of one pro shop guy who will touch the PVC-soled skates to adjust blades.  He's a hockey guy who has very few figure skating customers, all beginners.  He says he pops the rivets and replaces them after adjustment, filling with epoxy.  I don't know this was just his theory or if he's actually done this work, but others on the board have some experience with this process.

The sharpeners I've used (all figure skating specialists) will not adjust blades on PVC soles, with screws or rivets.  They've said it makes the blades less secure, especially if you have to fill the holes.  They weren't convinced that epoxy would hold and loosening the screws wears down the mounting openings in the sole.

Have you had the blades checked to if they're "true?"  Maybe the blade isn't mounted correctly in the first place.  Sometimes, the low-end skates come with angled blades that need to be sent back to the factory.

I'm having the same "all the weight on the inside of the foot" problem with my customs.  It's partially due to a physical problem which is now being addressed with PT, but that issue has caused the boot to break down prematurely and cant to one side, exaggerating the problem.  Hopefully, a realignment and new insoles will salvage the pricey skates.

Since you say you have pre-existing physical issues, you should address them before moving blades.  That's my plan now - I've been diligent about doing the PT exercises and working out to lose weight.  Once I'm healthy again and the tendonitis/hip misalignment is corrected, then I'll deal with the boots and blades.

If you're heavy or tall, the 121's may not be sturdy/stiff enough for your body.  If you can bend the ankle area over easily, the skates are broken down.

[Iceturtle]

Thanks - this is all useful info.  I started messing with the blades because nothing else was working.  I'm willing to accept the blame for my poor skating performance and assume it's me and not the skates that need adjusting!!   I started skating so that I could get some excercise while my daughter took lessons and I'm never going to be a serious skater.  However, I will probably stop my own LTS lessons soon as I haven't been able to solve my problems and don't want to get into PT and seeing specialists etc.

[sarahspins]

I would suspect this is really a fit issue over a blade issue... you mentioned that the pro shop switched them out once already because they were the wrong size - how certain are you now that they're correct?  What about width?  A lot of "alignment" issues may really be fit related, not necessarily blade position.

[Iceturtle]

Good point.  The skates are a wide fit - my feet are wide.  I don't have as much of a problem with my left foot which is actually slightly smaller than my right.  I have never tried to do a sport as difficult as skating  before, so I've never really noticed how much my right foot turns in.  Since I have been skating I have been forced to notice that my right knee and ankle turn in quite a bit.  I think the problem is mostly with my body rather than the skates and I am trying to compensate somehow.

[nicklaszlo]

I wouldn't recommend adjusting your own blades to anyone who hasn't been trained by an experienced pro.  I think it is easy to make things worse.  I've seen "fixed" blades that were falling off.

[Sk8tmum]

We've had multiple pairs of PVC-mounted Riedells that have had the blades mounted on a "slant".  Our sharpener WILL adjust blades on PVC - doesn't move screw holes, simply removes the blades and sands the soles down, which eliminates the problem.  However, he's a rarity in terms of doing that sort of work. 

[Iceturtle]

Oh, thanks, very interesting information - and I appreciate the warning from nicklaszlo.  The pro at the shop where I bought the skates is not willing to make adjustments on them, I've already asked.  I realize that I risk ruining the skates by fiddling with the blades, but since they are not working for me as is, I have got to the point where I'm willing to take more risks with them.  I am being very gentle and trying not to strip the threads in any way when I loosen the screws.  As I mentioned before, I'm a beginner, so I'm not jumping or doing anything that would put a lot of strain on the blades.  Do you think shims would work instead of sanding?  If I make my own shims, what is the best material to use and how do I determine the size and placement of the shims?

[AgnesNitt]

You can use metal washers for shims. I've also seen small pieces of leather.
Considering the boots are crap anyway for you, just use the washers. They're not worth the leather.

[Sk8tmum]

Before you start playing with them: get a small level. See if the blades are mounted "canted" from the boot. Then, use the level to see if they're mounted straight end to end.  You might also want to check to see if you've had a bad sharpening ... that could cause a similar problem if the edges have been wrecked.

Diagnosis before treatment

[Iceturtle]

Thanks all.  I'll give the washer shims a try.  Now why didn't I think of checking the blades with a level??  Pure genius!!  Will report back in a couple of days.

[AgnesNitt]

Also, are the soles warped? You should be able to visually see that. My fitter checks all that for me (that the blades and boot soles are not warped). And while I've had no problems, I've heard stories of fitters occasionally having to send either boots or blades back. Mind you, it's rare, very rare for competitive level stuff. But for the rec stuff that's made by the hundreds? Maybe it's more common. Dunno. But worth checking out.

I tried everything you're doing to fix my skating, in the long run I had the best experience with using ballet style exercises to strengthen my feet. Although I have visible pronation when I stand, I only have to use some minimal home grown in-boot fixes.

[aussieskater]

My old boots had pieces of plastic milk bottle cut up and used as shims under the blades (the 2 litre bottles with the handles:  http://www.foodplastics.com.au/Products/Bottles/2L%20Light%20Weight%20Milk%20Bottle.aspx).  My coach did it for me; he said he liked using it as it's very thin and a bit flexible so could be layered easily.

Current boots have a couple of small pieces of thin leather used as shims on one blade only, done by the fitter as the boot sole was not quite even but was too much work to sand down!

[Iceturtle]

Thanks, the more I read your comments, the more I think the shims are the best way to go whether it's my body that's the problem or the skates.  It is probably a little bit of both!  I've been working on my ankle strength off-ice by balancing on the outside of my right foot and trying to hold it for 2 minutes.  I'm still very wobbly so I'll keep on trying.  I will get to try out my newly shimmed blades tomorrow.  Since I'm pronating, I need to add the shims to the outside edge, right?

[Iceturtle]

So, today I went out and tried my newly shimmed blades.  Before I added the shims I checked the level of the blades and had a good look at the sole of the boot and I couldn't see any noticeable problems.  Once I added a small shim I could see the that the blades were slanted slightly.  On the ice, I immediately noticed that nothing had changed regarding my weight still all being on the inside of the boot.  I think the shim made a minimal difference and did not help alleviate the problem which is that on ice, I am not balanced/centered on the blade, the outside of my foot is not even pressing on the sole of the boot.  I started with some stroking and still got the noticeable slide outwards when trying to go straight on my right foot.  I tried lots of outside edges and still can only make a right foot clockwise circle by forcing the blade round and scraping.  My coach is convinced that I am just too scared to lean into the circle.  I'm not saying that fear is not a factor.  I think I am so poorly balanced on my right foot in general that everything I do on my right foot makes me scared, however, I can get the outside edge on my left foot, so it can't all be fear, can it?  My conclusion is that the blades need to be positioned off-center - so that I can be balanced evenly on the blade.  Obviously, that is not going to happen with these boots!  Thanks to everyone who gave me advice.  It was certainly worth a try!

[AgnesNitt]

If you're getting a 'slide outward' inside the boot, then the boot doesn't fit.

[Willowway]

Iceturtle - I am a very mature (very much older than most folks here) adult beginner (or I did begin a little over a year ago). I had a right side issue also. Could not find any balance on the right side, though the left side was just fine and came very naturally. My weight was way (and I mean very far) to the inside on my right side. I don't really pronate that much if at all - just was not getting weight centered over the blade. First, moved the blade on my right boot to the inside a bit, then a bit more. So the blade was repositioned substantially to the inside but still I felt that my balance point was somewhere "out there" (pointing out to about 2 o'clock), not anything I could find and count on.

I spent a lot of time looking down (I know...I don't do that when I'm not trying to figure something out) and noted that I naturally put my left foot, the good one, down (when in skates) directly under my hip while on the right side I consistently place my foot down over an inch (actually more) out to the right side. In essence, I wasn't centering my blade under my right hip at all; I was placing it outside center. So I practiced over and over and over (my mantra is 'let me do it 1,000 times and I'll get it) putting my right foot down (blade flat) a little more to the left and centered carefully under my right hip - I felt, I adjusted, I went over and over it until I finally knew I had it. The "trick" as I finally figured out was not letting the right hip push out and centering the blade under the properly aligned hip - easy to say but not impossible to correct.

Now I can glide confidently on that side on either an outside or inside edge but it took the combo of the blade adjustment and adjustment of my hip alignment and step mechanics to fix it. Remember, everything isn't about adjusting equipment. So analyze it for yourself on yourself. Experiment with where you place your blade on the ice relative to your hip joint and if your hips are squared up - that could be another source of a solution.

[Query]

1. Place a straight edge against the blades. Is it straight (good?) or curved laterally (bad)?

2. If you shim in a way that tends to twist the blade, you can warp it. In particular, you don't want to place pressure on the front that pushes the vertical alignment leftwards, together with pressure on the back that pushes it rightwards, or vice-versa. If you shim A LOT, it is better to "feather" the shims - i.e., to make the edges drop off gradually in width, rather than suddenly changing from full height to nothing.

3. It's sometimes hard for a beginner to figure out everything that is going on, based only on feel. E.g., your posture may not be what you think it is.

You want it to be comfortable to place the blade on the ice in one foot glide in vertical alignment, probably without having to bend your ankles, or use noticeable muscle to hold the pose. You shouldn't feel like one side of your foot is better supported than the other - though that comes mostly from inside the boot.

You shouldn't feel like you have to give your upper body a weird shape to glide straight and balanced on one foot, but, just like when you you stand on one foot without skates, you have to raise the free hip to make it work. Especially as a beginner, I think it helps to ask a coach whether you are in correct posture, explaining what you are trying to do.

4. I think it is great that you are trying to fix your problems, and not just accept the boots as they are.

[Iceturtle]

Great advice and comments.  I'm going to take the shims out because I don't want to warp the blades and it didn't really help anyway.  I checked the blade against a straight edge and there is a very, very slight curve to it - but a fraction of a millimeter.  Not sure if the one practice with the shims in did this or not as the left boot blade is similarly very, very slightly curved.  I think the fit of the boot is a little better on my right (my bigger foot) and I don't have the same problem on my left foot so I don't think it's the fit.

I definitely have to twist my body in a weird way just to go straight on my right foot - and I am never centered over the blade, which makes every move difficult - mohawks, cross-overs even half-pumps on a circle on the right foot are poor.  On the plus side my backwards snowplow stop is fantastic on my right side because the blade is already at the right angle for the stop :-)

Willowway is probably on the money with what my problem is.  I can't get the blades moved because the boots have PVC soles, so I'll try and work on placing my foot under my hip better.  I have slight scoliosis and had major surgery on my lower back about 17 years ago due to a congenital malformation of the spine - which has left me without a tailbone but no other problems that affect me on a day-to-day basis.  I have always had a slight  foot swing outwards on my right side when I walk, which is probably due to the malformation.  At age 50 it might be too late to fix the problem easily :-)  I think I will stop taking classes in September but keep skating on my own to see if I can get more comfortable on my right foot.  If I can get as comfortable on the right foot as I am on my left, I can always go back to classes later.  At this point though, I have no chance of getting through Adult 3 level with no outside edges on my right foot.  But I already enjoy being able to skate around while my daughter practices her spins and jumps.  It's so nice to be able to be somewhat competent on the ice and I most certainly have a greater appreciation of her accomplishments.  Thank you so much everyone who commented and gave me such helpful advice.