Bronze Program spins?

[FigureSpins]

Oh, you're right.  I thought you knew something I didn't know.

Doing it pretty does make the judges take notice and it's reflected in the scores, as is power and speed.

[irenar5]

Skittl, watch some icenetwork archives for the adult nats.  I think the videos will answer a lot of questions.  The judges' placements are all over the board- some put a certain competitor in 1st place, others in 7-th!  All of it sounds very arbitrary to me- I guess it really depends on who is judging and what their preferences are. My philosophy is go with the best/hardest element that you can do gracefully and with speed and stick with that!

[techskater]

Skittl, watch some icenetwork archives for the adult nats.  I think the videos will answer a lot of questions.  The judges' placements are all over the board- some put a certain competitor in 1st place, others in 7-th!  All of it sounds very arbitrary to me- I guess it really depends on who is judging and what their preferences are. My philosophy is go with the best/hardest element that you can do gracefully and with speed and stick with that!

It's not arbitrary.  I had a judge explain it like this (and I love this analogy as it hits it right on): some judges like apples best (good jumps), some judges like bananas best (good spins), some judges like cauliflower best (attempts at difficult transition steps), some judges like spinach best (speed and flow), some judges like rice best (extension) and so on.  A skater who can deliver apples, bananas, and spinach are more likely to do well across the board than a skater who delivers just apples and rice or just bananas and cauliflower. If a majority of skaters have only one or two things they can deliver, their ordinals are more likely to be mixed up depending on what the judges like best. 

[Skittl1321]

But at low levels, one skater might have apples and bananas and not much else, and another spinach and califlower and not much else.

Who wins?

[sarahspins]

Who wins?

I think that really depends on what the judges happen to be looking for that day.  I would hope that overall skating skill would be rewarded over the ability to do one element well, but it's hard to say for certain and it's really subjective when you get down to the details.. even in IJS a judge may aware more to an element than another.

There are going to be skaters who can do more or less than others, and that's just how it is... whether they are standard track skaters or adult skaters (either adult onset or returning adults), everyone has strengths and weaknesses, and it's never a completely "fair" competition unless you compete against the book (but that's not much fun).  I would certainly hope that every skater works towards having the "whole package" rather than only focusing on what they find easy to do.

[techskater]

skitl - depends on the panel.     That's why you may see ordinals under 6.0: 1 1 7 6 2 and you wonder what were judges 3 and 4 thinking?

[Debbie S]

I'm a little late to the discussion, but in response to Skittl's question about the spins, the answer is yes, a back upright and forward upright are not "of a different nature", b/c they are both classified/abbreviated as "UpSp" under IJS, and that is how "different nature" is now defined for adult comp, even at levels not judged under IJS. It wasn't always this way - before IJS, a back upright and forward upright were "of a different nature" and both were allowed in a Bronze comp program - I competed with my Bronze test program in Pre-Bronze and Bronze, back in 2005 and 2006. The test requirements have not changed since then but what is allowed in comp has - I know, it's odd. So you do still need both uprights in your test program but could not do them in a Bronze comp program, or you might get a deduction. You could, however, compete your Bronze program in a Pre-Bronze comp (although the time might be a problem), b/c AFAIK, there is no "different nature" rule for spins in Pre-Bronze.

[blue111moon]

As far as I know, you can do the backspin and upright scratch in a Bronze competition.  Under IJS (which few Bronze events are judged under in the US), you would not receive credit for the second spin - not a deduction, just a * with no credit for it.  But under competitions judged under 6.0, I think it would depend on exactly how familiar the judges on the panel are with the IJS definitions and how strict the referee is with enforcing the rules. 

I'd say compete in Bronze with the test program as it is and see what happens.  If nothing else it's good practice. 

Also, if under 6.0 you find a couple judges with ordinals way out of line with the majority, it's permissible to ask to speak to the judges and (politely) ask for clarification.  If you have your coach with you, have her ask the referee as soon as possible after the results are posted.  It can be very educational.

[Doubletoe]

I agree with Blue Moon.  Skate your test program if you're competing under 6.0.  Not only are the judges used to seeing Bronze test programs, but they also know that for a Bronze skater, a forward upright spin and back upright spin are two different animals and are less likely to consider them spins of the same nature (even though they technically meet that definition). Besides, under IJS, it's the technical specialist's job to determine whether the skater's spins were "spins of a different nature" and to decide whether or not they all count.  Judges aren't even used to paying attention to that; their job is just to judge the quality of each spin as they see it.  In other words, some judges might be very technical and score you a little lower as a result, but most judges probably won't.  Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to work on your sit-upright, which I believe can still be considered a "combination spin" under 6.0.

[sarahspins]

Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to work on your sit-upright, which I believe can still be considered a "combination spin" under 6.0

Okay, stupid question time   I know this was partially discussed in another thread recently if an upright change-foot spin satisfies both the forward and back spins on the test... would a sit into an upright (assuming both the sit and the upright are each held for the required revs) count for both of those spins on the test or do they actually need to be two separate spins? 

[Skittl1321]

Meanwhile, it wouldn't hurt to work on your sit-upright, which I believe can still be considered a "combination spin" under 6.0.

Got a fantastic sit-upright
In fact, I have to be concious to not allow myself to do it when I am just doing a sit spin... my coach doesn't think a sit-upright would be okay for the test (which isn't a big deal for me- I considered it before I cut my music longer).  But he also didn't think a combo spin would be okay for the backspin, and recently there was a test posted that did that, so who knows.

[Doubletoe]

Okay, stupid question time  I know this was partially discussed in another thread recently if an upright change-foot spin satisfies both the forward and back spins on the test... would a sit into an upright (assuming both the sit and the upright are each held for the required revs) count for both of those spins on the test or do they actually need to be two separate spins?  

Although the backspin is allowed from any entrance on the test (which can be interpreted to mean that you can do it out of a forward spin), it's my impression that you can't use one spin to satisfy two different required spins on a test or in a competition program that has specific spin requirements.  I'm 100% sure that is true for competition programs (for example, a flying sit spin in a Junior or Senior program can count as the required flying spin or the required single position spin, but not both; you still need to do two different spins). So in this case, I would imagine you'd still need to do either a forward or backspin separately.

Got a fantastic sit-upright
In fact, I have to be conscious to not allow myself to do it when I am just doing a sit spin... my coach doesn't think a sit-upright would be okay for the test (which isn't a big deal for me- I considered it before I cut my music longer).  But he also didn't think a combo spin would be okay for the backspin, and recently there was a test posted that did that, so who knows.

For the test, I'd keep the sit spin as a plain sit (although one or two revolutions in upright position to come out of it nicely is absolutely fine), but for the competition program I would go with (1) reverse upright, (2) plain sit spin, and (3) sit-scratch.  Under 6.0, I'm pretty sure they will count a sit-scratch as a combination spin as long as you end in a scratch spin that you clearly meant to do, not just a couple of revolutions in a slow 1-foot upright position at the end of the sit spin.

[LilJen]

Skittl, I'm with you on 6.0. It's confusing. and "of a different nature" is also very vague. Not to mention that the WBP requirements for Bronze are TOTALLY DIFFERENT from the test requirements!!! I got a new program last year and structured it with the WBP requirements AND ISI Open Bronze in mind. Come to realize now that I do NOT need a step sequence for the Bronze test, although WBP stipulates either a step or spiral sequence.

That said, in any event, I did scratch, fwd-back-fwd, and sit for both my test and competition programs last month and didn't get any comments about how it didn't meet requirements. (Although the whole thing was kind of shaky anyhow, so . . . )

And I'm glad I'm in good company with a bad camel. At least my bad camel is better than my bad backspin. Not so good for the purposes of testing, but oh well.

[blue111moon]

The WBP requirements for ALL levels are very different from the corresponding test requirements, standard and adult.  Keep in mind that the tests reflect the minimum standard for the level while WBP elements are for competitions where the standard is much higher. 

Even the so-called Competitive Test Program requirements are higher than the test requirements.

And yes, the judges at non-qual competitions generally have copies of the WBP/CTP standards on their clipboards with their judges sheets.  (I know this because as a Competition Accountant, I'm the one who puts them there.)

[Skittl1321]

But it doesn't meet the minimum standard. A bronze test program does not meet the requirements of the level. The spins are not of a different nature, and there is no footwork.

A test program should not make you competitive, but it should meet the bare minimum.

(my program does have footwork, but it is not quite half ice, so it isn't long enough.  I've chosen not to care)

[Skittl1321]

However, it seems that adult "Test Track" events are a need. 

Do you seriously live in an area where there are enough adults for this?

We are lucky if there are enough people to have a No-test/PreBronze/Bronze competition and a Silver/Gold competition.  And friends that live in areas with great adult skating tell me they usually only have 2-3 people in each level, though they do get the levels divided up.

To have regular events AND a test track event just seems silly.

Mod note: unwelcome posts removed from thread

[Skittl1321]

Our club has a group that regularly travels to ISI competitions.  There are three adults in the group (I am not one of them, I cannot afford to travel.  In addition, we have at least 2 other competitive adults at my rink).  The last competition (which was described as "huge") they all said they competed against the book in every event.

The only events they compete against people in are the national competitions (adult nationals, regular nationals, worlds).

If you wanted to have an adult "test track" in USFS- that's all it would be, competiting against the book.  Might as well do an exhibition.  (I don't think USFS allows competiting against the book anymore.  Most competitions cancel you, some offer a critique.)

[techskater]

Do you seriously live in an area where there are enough adults for this?

We are lucky if there are enough people to have a No-test/PreBronze/Bronze competition and a Silver/Gold competition.  And friends that live in areas with great adult skating tell me they usually only have 2-3 people in each level, though they do get the levels divided up.

To have regular events AND a test track event just seems silly.

Even adult events which are highly attended only get 3-4 people per level/age class at maximum.  If you want to skate your test program and there's someone in the group with more skills than that, you likely aren't going to win.  If you are doing it to get your program out there before testing, I don't think you should really care whether it meets the requirement since THAT is your goal, not winning a Bronze FS event at a local competition.   

[fsk8r]

Out of curiosity, how many age categories do you have? NISA have just reduced us down to 3. Young adults, middle aged, and oldies (to put it crudely). The middle category spans from 30 to nearly 50, which seems a massive range.

[Skittl1321]

At local.events here, the only age category. Is adult.

I know they split them at nationals, which is highly attended

[sarahspins]

is it better to do something hard poorly, or do something easy well?

Considering that judging is subjective, the judges are more likely to remember what you do poorly than what you do well.  So I'd go for something easy you can do well.

[singerskates]

I know people say IJS is confusing- but 6.0 is a HUGE mystery to me.  I don't understand the scoring at all.  It's just ordinals of X was better than Y, and that is completely subjective, unless there is a huge gap in ability.  But where do the deductions come into play (for example, doing 2 upright spins)- is it better to do something hard poorly, or do something easy well?

All these things are quantified in IJS!

Can't agree more about 6.0 or over here in Canada what they call OBO (one by one) marking system. I far perfer the CPC (IJS) marking system because it gives you are report card of your skating program and you can see after the fact what you need to work on and where you did well in your program. You can also measure over time how you've improved over the years.