Double loop OFF ICE

[irenar5]

Where do you get rotation for double loop when you do it off ice?  I jump up and pull in into backspin position, but can't really get more than one revolution.  I do not want to use my arms to create rotation, since that is precisely what you do not want to do on ice. 
I am able to do axel, 2sal and 2toe off ice, but not the loop!  I tired doing 1/4 turn hops before jumping up, but all to no avail.  If I take off from both feet, I have more rotational energy, but it is that pesky one leg take off that I am having trouble with!
Suggestions?

[Skittl1321]

I'm not doing doubles, but my coach is working with me to snap my hips in loops off ice to create the rotation (I use my arms right now).

I would assume the same technique extends upward... It also might be why triple loops are considered to be hip killers

[irenar5]

I'm not doing doubles, but my coach is working with me to snap my hips in loops off ice to create the rotation

By "snap" do you mean internal rotation of the "skating" hip?

[Skittl1321]

I've always thought of as leading with my non skating hip, but the skating hip has to go with it... so you could probably think of it that way too.

[drskater]

I do off-ice loops all the time. To approximate the edge, I pivot with my foot and spring off my toe. It's pretty easy to get a full revolution this way--perhaps for a double you  could add a step, like an off-ice axel?

[sarahspins]

I've always thought of as leading with my non skating hip, but the skating hip has to go with it... so you could probably think of it that way too.

My coach has been working with mine on ice telling me the same thing - the free hip "pulls" you up into the jump, the skating hip follows and tucks into the rotation (backspin position).  For me as a CW skater, my right arm (which is back at the start of the jump) is what really kicks off the speed of that rotation (pulling into the backspin accelerates it).  We've been working on getting more height/distance to get ready for the double loop.

That said, I wouldn't worry about getting a double rotation off ice necessarily - technically you only need 1 1/4 rotations on the ice to successfully do a double loop.  I have never been able to really do much off-ice rotation because of my reconstructed knee.  I can do axels off ice but that's really the extent of what I can do..  I'm missing a sizable piece of my medial meniscus on my right knee and landing off-ice puts a lot of twisting pressure on my knee that I really don't think is good for it - it's pressure that I don't experience with landings on-ice and I'd hate to injury myself off-ice

[Doubletoe]

It's not that you aren't supposed to use your arms/shoulders; it's just that you aren't supposed to lead with the arms/shoulders.  Just like the lutz, you want to pre-rotate the shoulders in the opposite direction from rotation (to the right, if you take off & land on your right foot) so you have this torque when you release them and let them square up with the hips.  When I used to land double loops on the floor, I remember getting the most rotation when I would really pull my right shoulder back before takeoff, then think of initiating the rotation with my foot and hip before letting the shoulder release.  

[irenar5]

Doubletoe,
that's a good point about torso counterrotation.  Were you doing them from standstill and from one leg?  Or did you lead with single loops?

[Doubletoe]

I did them from a standstill, with both feet on the floor and the heel of my free foot in front of the toes of my takeoff/landing foot.