Omni-Rotational Skills

[FigureSpins]

The discussion about CW vs. CCW turns in the Silver Moves thread made me wonder what can be done, proactively, to balance out the sides and/or help skaters who struggle with spins/turns/dizziness.  Anyone up for some experimentation?

My sister still talks about how, as a child, I would spin around and around until I was good and dizzy, then stagger around until the dog knocked me over.  (He was a big dog and I was a little kid.)  Then, I did it again in the other direction.  Either I was that bored or Janet Lynn and Peggy Fleming won me over.  In either case, I don't remember struggling with either direction.  I tried it tonight and CCW (my skating spin direction) took longer to make me dizzy than CW.  Since we don't have a dog, I didn't take a header to the floor.  The cat was smart enough to leave the room.

Give it a try and let us know what you find out about yourself. 


Standard warning: do this in a safe, open area where dogs, furniture and other items are out of the way.

[sarahspins]

I get dizzy faster CW.  I spin the kids around all the time (hold arms, let feet fly) and I can keep going almost forever CCW - usually it's my arms that get tired or the kid telling me to stop, but I really don't get dizzy.  If I do it the other way (CW) I don't struggle with it but I do get dizzy pretty fast (not as dizzy as they do though).

I didn't think about it until just now but my sister and I used to go to the park and spin so much on the tire swing we would make ourselves sick.  It was sort of a contest to see who could last the longest.  I couldn't say what direction we went - I'm sure we went both.

Every once in a while I mess around with spinning CW on ice... I *can* do it, but not anywhere near as strong as spinning CCW.  I would love to someday be one of those skaters who can spin both ways.

[fsk8r]

I jump and spin CW on ice. Off ice, I actually like doing two footed jumps CCW.
Spinning I know I'll get dizzier going CCW, only because I've trained my head not to get dizzy going CW.

I've heard that cartwheel preference has some ability to predict on ice spin direction. I've always done them so the right hand goes down first. I'm self taught (never did gymnastics), so that's my natural preference. When I was little and tried to do them the other way, I couldn't.

[turnip]

Oooh will definately try this tonight lol! My dog is a chihauhau, so probably more dangerous for him than me, so better shut him out of the room!

I was interested to find that street dancers also have a preferred spin direction (knee spins etc). Like skaters, they found it hard to do the other way (two street dance coaches).  I suppose it makes sense, i just never really thoguht about it!

[sk8dsmom]

My DH said yesterday that DS (10yr old reverse skater/CW) for the 'fun' of it during group lesson did an axel CCW (he can do it on land but I've never seen it on ice).  He also twizzles both ways. 
When he first started waltz jumps and spins, he would do it both ways until we figured out he was a reverse skater.

[Skittl1321]

I said much easier in my spinning direction, but my spinning direction was PICKED because I favor turning that way.  I am very very right side dominant (I have something like a 2-inch difference in my calves between the legs, something PT is working to correct), and I am sure that if I had skated as a kid before a lifetime of not fantastic dance training I would be a CCW skater. 

I can turn/spin pretty well non-stop CW, I get dizzy very fast CCW (like chaines in a circle, I could do those forever CW, over the right shoulder, the "normal" direction for dance, but I struggle CCW- something good ballet training will help you balance, but as I said, I didn't have GOOD dance training. I had "everyone needs to match" training, so we focused on just the side in the performance.)

(I actually attribute this to why I can't do a loop.  I don't have the strength to do one foot hops off ice on the left leg.  I can hop well, for a sucky jumper- I was always a turner in dance, off the right leg.)

I can do all my half jumps both directions (just makes it easier in low level classes to go with the flow), and can do a decent two foot spin CCW, and a really crappy, but still there 1 foot spin CCW.  But turns at speed- no way!

[fsk8r]

I said much easier in my spinning direction, but my spinning direction was PICKED because I favor turning that way.  I am very very right side dominant (I have something like a 2-inch difference in my calves between the legs, something PT is working to correct), and I am sure that if I had skated as a kid before a lifetime of not fantastic dance training I would be a CCW skater. 

I can turn/spin pretty well non-stop CW, I get dizzy very fast CCW (like chaines in a circle, I could do those forever CW, over the right shoulder, the "normal" direction for dance, but I struggle CCW- something good ballet training will help you balance, but as I said, I didn't have GOOD dance training. I had "everyone needs to match" training, so we focused on just the side in the performance.)

(I actually attribute this to why I can't do a loop.  I don't have the strength to do one foot hops off ice on the left leg.  I can hop well, for a sucky jumper- I was always a turner in dance, off the right leg.)

I can do all my half jumps both directions (just makes it easier in low level classes to go with the flow), and can do a decent two foot spin CCW, and a really crappy, but still there 1 foot spin CCW.  But turns at speed- no way!

Feel free to shoot me, but have you ever tried a loop jump on your right foot? If you've got the leg strength you might manage to do a single that way (it's not that much rotation and it's hardly likely to make you dizzy).
I've got a dodgy falling leaf the wrong way around. We don't do any half jumps other than a waltz in the UK, and I was shown a falling leaf for synchro. Dance coach put it in my free dance and asked me to do it my normal way and I couldn't. It's now in the program the wrong way. The judges are going to think it's weird as the spin is CW and the waltz is CW and the falling leaf is CCW!

[Skittl1321]

Feel free to shoot me, but have you ever tried a loop jump on your right foot? If you've got the leg strength you might manage to do a single that way (it's not that much rotation and it's hardly likely to make you dizzy).

I can do it off ice, but on ice my 3-turn entry isn't strong enough to be able to do it- that is my absolute worst 3-turn (besides back insides).  I get "stuck" in the ice if I do crossovers- even though I can jump better on the right side, my jumping ability in general sucks, and kind of always has.

Oh- that's something I don't have rotational issues with. My back outside 3-turns are decent and pretty well equal.

The judges are going to think it's weird as the spin is CW and the waltz is CW and the falling leaf is CCW!

This kind of harkens back to the other thread, but this is one reason why you should do what the judges "expect" for moves programs.  A local skater got a retry on a test because the judge (single panel) said she did a move where she repeated the same side both times.  Her other moves were iffy, so she wasn't given a reskate, but the papers make it pretty clear she would have passed if this move was "counted".  The tape showed she clearly switched feet, but she started on the non-traditional one, so the judge just saw her finishing on the right foot, and assumed she did the right foot both times.

As for jumps, I think the ones you have the judges will think it is kind of interesting.  But if you did toe-loop one way and flip the other, you might get dinged as having the same jump in there twice- they'd have to really be paying attention to notice what you did, and might just see you picked with the same foot, and assume same jump.  

[fsk8r]

I can do it off ice, but on ice my 3-turn entry isn't strong enough to be able to do it- that is my absolute worst 3-turn (besides back insides).  I get "stuck" in the ice if I do crossovers- even though I can jump better on the right side, my jumping ability in general sucks, and kind of always has.
Oh- that's something I don't have rotational issues with. My back outside 3-turns are decent and pretty well equal.

Have you tried the mohawk entry? (Just thinking of alternatives)
I decided the problem with back inside 3s was that you have to turn out the circle and it was easier to turn into the circle. (My body position on a back inside edge faces into the circle). It's a lot easier to do a back inside bracket. My coaches think I'm nuts, but did agree with my logic when I explained it to them. 

[/quote]
This kind of harkens back to the other thread, but this is one reason why you should do what the judges "expect" for moves programs.  A local skater got a retry on a test because the judge (single panel) said she did a move where she repeated the same side both times.  Her other moves were iffy, so she wasn't given a reskate, but the papers make it pretty clear she would have passed if this move was "counted".  The tape showed she clearly switched feet, but she started on the non-traditional one, so the judge just saw her finishing on the right foot, and assumed she did the right foot both times.

As for jumps, I think the ones you have the judges will think it is kind of interesting.  But if you did toe-loop one way and flip the other, you might get dinged as having the same jump in there twice- they'd have to really be paying attention to notice what you did, and might just see you picked with the same foot, and assume same jump.  
[/quote]

Thankfully my weird jumping is for a free dance and not anything else, so there shouldn't be any problems. Everything is "dancified". I have been told that for Moves in Isolation in synchro having jumps in both directions is acceptable as long as it's the same jump. It does give the Technical Specialists a headache as they've got to review and determine whether everyone was doing the same thing.

With regards to the skater starting on the other foot to normal, I sometimes wise tests were video taped, so if you disagreed with something like this you could appeal and a judge could do a video review and revise the results where necessary. It happens in examinations so why not skating tests? (I've also argued that it should happen in music exams as I was failed because the examiner claimed I played the sight reading a 3rd higher. That would take skill. I'm not that good at sight reading to screw up throughout that badly. There's no comeback though as it's his word versus mine and my parents money down the drain).

[sarahspins]

I actually attribute this to why I can't do a loop

Lots of people have similar muscle imbalances and still jump just fine.  By all accounts my right side is my "weak" side because of surgery (I never got the muscle mass back, even before I quit skating 12 years ago) and I still jump on that leg.  Don't let it stop you!  Work on hopping on one leg off ice - just start small.  Nothing is impossible... but it also won't happen without a lot of work.

It took me a long time to get loops back (and I used to have a nice double loop!) - despite wanting to do them 2 years ago when I started skating again, I think I only got them about 6-7 months ago (it was last spring, I don't remember exactly when).  They were TINY at first (barely off the ice tiny)... but they're getting better - someday I may even have a double again.   So it took me 18+ months working on something I knew I could easily do before I could do it again (and my coach had me doing all kinds of things that I felt were as close to impossible as the jump to help me along - like jumping out of backspins).  I'm not suggesting that it will take you 18 months - for all I know you could be doing them next month, or it might be 5 years from now, just don't be the one standing in the way of yourself - you CAN do it, it just takes time

I decided the problem with back inside 3s was that you have to turn out the circle and it was easier to turn into the circle. (My body position on a back inside edge faces into the circle). It's a lot easier to do a back inside bracket. My coaches think I'm nuts, but did agree with my logic when I explained it to them.

You know, it's funny, but I had this exact conversation with someone earlier this week.  For me the BI 3's are iffy (especially at speed), but I can do the BI brackets just fine.

[Skittl1321]

Don't let it stop you!  

I've been working on loop seriously for about 4 years.  I'm trying.  Like I said though, I can't even hop on one foot off ice...though I've been working on that for the same amount of time.  I still do the off ice jumps though...

[techskater]

One of my coaches insists on jumps that land on a back inside foot in both directions.  He also insists that the wrong direction be worked on to be almost as good as the non-rotational side.  When I first started, waltz jumps and Salchows were *really* hard.  Now, I have a 1/2 loop in the wrong direction in my footwork.

[aussieskater]

It's a lot easier to do a back inside bracket.

I agree with you, and my coach does too - we both find the counter-rotational turns (ie: brackets, counters) easier than their counterparts.  Mind you, just because she says she finds them easier - you wouldn't know it watching her! That's what I'm aiming at.  One day...

I have been told that for Moves in Isolation in synchro having jumps in both directions is acceptable as long as it's the same jump. It does give the Technical Specialists a headache as they've got to review and determine whether everyone was doing the same thing.

That's correct.  Our adult team has 6 spinners this season - as it happens, 3 are CW and 3 are CCW.  To make the tech panel's life easier - and to assist them to give us the call   - we've carefully choreographed the program so they're in 2 rows; one row of CW spinners and one row of CCW.  Can only get away with that when you have the same number each way!