Loop and Half Loop Confusion - fsf, londonicechamp

[JimStanmore]

londonicechamp
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Post Title: Loop and half loop confusion.
Posted: 12-26-2009, 12:25 PM

Hi

My coach was teaching me loop for a while, then realised that I should have been able to do a half loop first, before doing a loop. So I have been working with her on the half loop for a couple of weeks now. The half loop is now getting consistent.

However, when the coach asked me to try a loop during Thursday's lesson with her, I got confused. It must be a mind thing, coz when I practise after the ice was being resurfaced, I seemed to know what a loop jump is, though have a tendency to do it on a two foot landing.

Well, I think that it may be the fact that when I first learnt a loop, my coach asked me to use the right foot mohawk entry, and then when she asked me to do it last week, she asked me to do from a left inside 3 turn entry, that is where I got confused, as it is the same entry as a half loop.

Does anybody have similar problem as me, or know how to solve my problem?

londonicechamp 

vesperholly
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Posted: 12-26-2009, 12:47 PM

I really think it's difficult to learn the half loop before the loop. Exactly as you've experienced, it will give your single loops trouble. I know it's only a "half" jump and logically should come first, but I think skaters should have a solid loop before they attempt the half.

The loop is the first jump where you keep the center of gravity over the skating foot, rather than transition from left side to right side like a salchow. It's an important distinction. It requires the same amount of rotation, but a BI edge landing, which is actually more difficult to control.

I'd go back to the single loop and save the half loop for later. It's only a highlight/connecting jump anyways, and not that necessary to learn early. 

londonicechamp
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Posted: 12-26-2009, 12:56 PM

Hi

Well, my problem with the loop was when I first learnt it with my coach, I did not have enough rotation and also the height. That is why she thinks that I should learn the half loop first.

It is not exactly that I want to learn the half loop first before the loop. It is just that my coach thinks that it is better for me that way.

Maybe I should try working on the single loop again during my practice.

londonicechamp 

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Posted: 12-26-2009, 12:57 PM

Hi

I also figure out that the half loop must be almost as difficult to learn as a loop jump, as they are both catergorised under the ISI freestyle level 4.

londonicechamp 

Virtualsk8r
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Posted: 12-26-2009, 02:28 PM

Both the single loop and the half-loop are one-rotation jumps. The single loop takes off backward and rotates once in the air to land on the same foot (take-off foot). The half-loop takes off like the single loop on a backward outside edge and the skater rotates once in the air. However - the skater lands on the inside edge of the opposite foot. (ie right back outside take-off/rotate once/land on left back inside edge).

No need to learn the half-loop as it is not an identified jump - and definitely not a half jump like the half-flip or half-lutz.

Cdn skater Joannie Rochette uses the half-loop in her series - triple toe / half loop / triple salchow...to maximize her jump points. 

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Posted: 12-26-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by londonicechamp 
Well, my problem with the loop was when I first learnt it with my coach, I did not have enough rotation and also the height. That is why she thinks that I should learn the half loop first.


Unless she's having you land forward, which is not a half loop, I can't see how a half loop would help either height or rotation issues. The only difference is the landing foot and edge, the rotation remains the same. It's not an easy jump. Though it does not appear on USFS tests as a required element, it is an semi-optional jump on the Juvenile FS test - one element asks for either a half loop, a falling leaf or a split jump.

Why don't you have a discussion with your coach about the problems the half loop is causing in your loop? 

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Posted: 12-26-2009, 05:31 PM

My problem was the other way, taught the half-loop first then the loop. Had to spend some time unlearning the half-loop because it caused me to land the loop on the wrong foot. Either jump you do, you can use either entrance you describe as it is the exit/landing that will be different.

Vesperholly, the half-loop is required for ISI test 4 I believe. 

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Posted: 12-26-2009, 06:24 PM

loops are my best jump but I still cant do a half loop. Takes too much coordination 

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Posted: 12-26-2009, 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtualsk8r 
Both the single loop and the half-loop are one-rotation jumps. The single loop takes off backward and rotates once in the air to land on the same foot (take-off foot). The half-loop takes off like the single loop on a backward outside edge and the skater rotates once in the air. However - the skater lands on the inside edge of the opposite foot. (ie right back outside take-off/rotate once/land on left back inside edge).


Exactly. "Half loop" is really a misnomer, since the half loop is also a full revolution jump. You just land on the left foot instead of the right foot. I honestly think it is a bad idea to learn the half loop before learning the regular loop because it gets you into the habit of transferring your weight to the left foot on landing. The key to the loop jump is staying over your right side the whole time, so I would suggest working on your backspin. It's a really good way to help your loop, since you have to stay over the right side and the position is exactly the same as the loop.

P.S. If you take off like a loop but just do a half turn in the air and land forward on your left toepick (then push forward onto the right foot), that is a "falling leaf" not a half loop. The falling leaf is really not a good way to fix your loop, either, since it encourages you to turn forward and open out your left side, the biggest no-no on the loop jump. 

Isk8NYC
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Posted: 12-27-2009, 11:06 AM

I was taught the half-loop first, probably because of the ISI curriculum. I didn't have any problem learning the loop once I had landed a flip. Both the loop and the half-loop jumps were among my best.

Good or bad, the half-loop provides a safety net for the loop jump - you can stay on your feet if you pop the loop jump by landing it as a half-loop. The bad news is that it can quickly become a bad habit for skaters that haven't mastered proper BO landings.

The half-loop provides a nice jump sequence transition for a salchow entry. I just like doing them - cross-check your arms on the landing, cros your free leg behind and it just flies over the ice.

Back in the Old Days, we learned jumps in this order: Toe Loop, Half-Flip, Flip, Lutz, Half-Loop, Loop, then Axel. However, today I teach the loop jump before the full flip or the half-loop jump. Many skating coaches recommend teaching the Loop first since the in-air position is so vital to all the other jumps. I think it also prevents the chicken-out landings from becoming bad habits. 

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Posted: 12-27-2009, 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jp1andOnly 
loops are my best jump but I still cant do a half loop. Takes too much coordination


I always felt that coordination led to a better Lutz jump for some reason. I think it's the way you have to "force" yourself to turn against the natural rotation. 

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Posted: 12-27-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by doubletoe 
P.S. If you take off like a loop but just do a half turn in the air and land forward on your left toepick (then push forward onto the right foot), that is a "falling leaf" not a half loop. The falling leaf is really not a good way to fix your loop, either, since it encourages you to turn forward and open out your left side, the biggest no-no on the loop jump.


I always wandered what a falling leaf was and how it was done; thanks for clarifying! I'm still "fixing" my loop, although I'm landing it on the correct foot now, I need more air time! 

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Posted: 12-27-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skate@Delaware 
I always wandered what a falling leaf was and how it was done; thanks for clarifying! I'm still "fixing" my loop, although I'm landing it on the correct foot now, I need more air time!


Yay! Glad to hear you're making progress! BTW, to see an awesome split falling leaf, watch any of Michelle Kwan's old programs. I was doing falling leaves for a year or two before I realized that was what Michelle Kwan did as her split jump! 

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Posted: 12-27-2009, 08:30 PM

I hate the half-loop, I never remember how to do it, and want to land it forward like the other half jumps.

Recently my coach made me a practice schedule and stuck half flip and half lutz up front with waltz jumps, because those were the "easy" jumps. She was shocked to hear I didn't learn half flip and half lutz until after toe loop and salchow, and therefore considered them to be harder than the full jumps (although arguabley I cheat my toe loop, so it's not "easy")

and while there is "no need" to learn half loop for IJS coded scoring, there is need when your coach sticks it into a program. 

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Post Title: Definition
Posted: 12-27-2009, 10:14 PM

The "half loop" is called a Euler. The jump is in the 5th freestle test in Roller Skating. It was named after some guy who skated many years ago. It is a full revolution jump mostly used for connecting Salchows or flips in a combination.
Also the " inside axel" was called a Colledge after Cecilia Colledge who did it first. Jill Trenery did a Colledge triple Salchow combo.
Just a bit of trivia. 

[JimStanmore]

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Posted: 12-27-2009, 11:24 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321 
and while there is "no need" to learn half loop for IJS coded scoring, there is need when your coach sticks it into a program.


Well, you always have a choice in that matter, right? There are no half loops in my programs. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 01:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by FREESK8ER 
Also the " inside axel" was called a Colledge after Cecilia Colledge who did it first. Jill Trenery did a Colledge triple Salchow combo.
Just a bit of trivia.


Jill Trenary did a one-foot axel -- not an inside axel -- into a triple salchow. For a CCW jumper, an inside axel takes off the RFI edge and lands on the RBO; a one-foot axel takes off from the LFO and lands on the LBI, which is the take-off edge for a salchow. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 02:08 AM

thats another one thats my fav. The lutz is fairly straightforward. Actually many reasons why people flutz is the edge heading right towards the corner. Make is almost go across ice and it is way easier. Dont ask me about the toe loop. As a kid I learned the 3 turn-waltz jump so I will probably never ever get a double toe consistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isk8NYC 
I always felt that coordination led to a better Lutz jump for some reason. I think it's the way you have to "force" yourself to turn against the natural rotation.




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Posted: 12-28-2009, 08:43 AM

I learned a loop long before I learned a half loop, because when I was a kid I don't think anyone really used half loops in programs to link jumps like they do now, it was mostly used in footwork (the first time I remember doing one was in an ice show group number in college and I didn't even know it was a half loop back then, it was just part of the choreography). As other people have mentioned, it is a tricky, pesky jump that's actually a full rotation. I use half loops in footwork or to link jumps together in sequences because by putting me on the L foot, it allows me to use salchows (my program has a lutz/half loop/salchow/toe loop for the jump sequence, that's the only sal in my program). I also have one into my flip just as a difficult entry (there the half loop functions much like a wally and just makes the entry harder but doesn't turn a solo jump into a combo because it's not a recognized jump). I actually don't even think of it as a loop though, because if I think loop I land on my right foot. To trick my brain, I really think more of just jumping, rotating and landing on my left foot. You really need a nice, solid landing edge in order to use them to link some jumps, especially if you're going to pick in for a flip.

I've also used one footed salchows (take off and land on a LBI edge) to link jumps together, they're awkward but very few people ever do them. I had one in my bronze program a few years ago, but I get much better height on a half loop so I usually stick to that. And when I got off the ice afer competing, I swear at least 5 people told me I landed a salchow on the wrong foot, thinking it was a mistake that I covered up by doing another sal after. Well, yeah, that was intentional.

I've also played around with Wallys (very, very little) but my body/brain don't quite connect on them. I end up cranking the edge to an outside edge right before taking off, and that's just a really poorly executed loop jump. I really would love to be able to do a left handed wally (take off on LBI edge/land on LBO edge) into a (right handed) lutz, but that's much easier said than done! Maybe now that I'm working on double toes/double toe wallys, I'll be able to get the concept of doing one rotation without the toepick. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 09:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vesperholly 
Well, you always have a choice in that matter, right? There are no half loops in my programs.


Sure, I suppose I have a choice to refuse to do it, but she also has the choice to stop coaching me. 

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Post Title: Oops
Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by daisies 
Jill Trenary did a one-foot axel -- not an inside axel -- into a triple salchow. For a CCW jumper, an inside axel takes off the RFI edge and lands on the RBO; a one-foot axel takes off from the LFO and lands on the LBI, which is the take-off edge for a salchow.


Your right, it is called a one foot axel but wouldn't it be easier to call it a Colledge? I guess they call it a 1 foot axel because you land on the same skate you take off on.
The LFI edge take off, landing on a LBO edge is called a Boeckle after some guy named Boeckle. I really need to get out the history book and get all these names correct. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321 
Sure, I suppose I have a choice to refuse to do it, but she also has the choice to stop coaching me.


Um ... wow. Maybe I'm just not experienced in other ways, but my coach-student relationship is and has always been very collaborative, with all the coaches I've taken lessons from. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by vesperholly 
Um ... wow. Maybe I'm just not experienced in other ways, but my coach-student relationship is and has always been very collaborative, with all the coaches I've taken lessons from.


Mine is very much collaborative. (I pick my own music for example, and am shocked by other threads where it is apparently the norm for a coach to decide what music would be.)

However, she has skills she wants me to learn. I don't get to pick that. I can tell her I can't jump TODAY for my hips, or I can't do sit spins due to my knees, but I don't get to eliminate the elements all together. Heck, I could even say "no freestyle for the next 3 months"- but if we are doing freestyle, she determines which elements we do. And things she notices I've very unlikely to practice on my own end up being thrown into programs.

She's never threatened to stop coaching me, but I've never met a coach who will put up with a student who wants to run the show. I'm sure I test her limits enough with my over thinking. Refusing to do skills without a good reason wouldn't be a good thing. 

daisies
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Posted: 12-28-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skittl1321 
I've never met a coach who will put up with a student who wants to run the show.


Perfect example of "YMMV." As an adult, I've never let my coaches run the show. I pay them, not vice-versa! If they tell me to do something, I'll usually try it, but if I don't like it, I say so, stop doing it and move on to something else. My money and time are too valuable to work on something that makes me miserable and/or has the potential to mess up either my body or my timing on other skating elements!

But I do understand it's different if you are just learning the basics, because basics are necessary building blocks. However, I agree with others that a half-loop isn't a building block the way other half jumps are; it's quite difficult and could mess up the timing of your single loop.

YMMV! 

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Post Title: two things
Posted: 12-28-2009, 05:46 PM

Two things about 1/2 loops:

1. In IJS, using 1/2 loops to create a sequence will actually lose you points. Unless they recently changed it, a sequence of jumps gets a .8 factor. So as difficult as it is to connect a triple toe loop to a triple salchow with a half loop, you lose a bunch of points for doing it. You'd be better off doing 3 sal / 3toe, which is much easier, but worth more.

My former coach wanted me to do flip / half loop / flip. I could kinda squeak one out, but it was really hard and probably wouldn't get me much. I also find the 1/2 loop in competition can be a disaster, since it is such a finesse jump. If the nerves are getting to you, or the adrenaline is too high, it is hard to control. Just not worth it.

2. Regarding using a half loop to learn a full loop, I agree with previous posters that there is no connection between the two. However, I sometimes teach a version of the half loop that has you landing forward on your usual landing foot. So for CCW: back RO take off, 1/2 turn in the air, land fwd on right toe pick with left foot crossed in front in proper backspin position, step out to left fwd outside edge. This will give you the feeling of taking off on your right side, then staying there and getting your free leg in the right spot.

I also recommend this same technique for 1/2 flip and 1/2 lutz, rather than switch to the other foot in the air, which teaches nothing.

Tim 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 07:34 PM

I learned the half-loop first, partly because my loop was not real consistent and I needed the encouragement boost I got from learning a new jump that I could do consistently. I did the half-loop from a back crossover entry and the loop from a forward 3 entry.

When I took my bronze free test, I included both jumps separately in my program because I was worried about landing the loop. I did actually seize up, fail to land the loop, and landed a great half-loop. Two of three judges passed me and had no trouble counting the half-loop as a full rotation jump.

I can do both jumps from the back crossover entry now and my coach is working me on jump combinations that include the half-loop. I've found it a handy jump to have. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 09:05 PM

I have had "issues" with my loop since un-doing the half-loop. I have a hard time rolling off/on my toepick. My coach has me going into it now from an inside 3-turn and ta-da, that seems to do the trick (weird, cause when I do the old way, I land it flat-footed again....((sigh)). Oh well. 

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Posted: 12-28-2009, 11:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by daisies 
But I do understand it's different if you are just learning the basics, because basics are necessary building blocks.


Thank you, you said it way better than I could! Coaching approaches are definitely different for skaters working on preliminary freestyle vs. senior moves. 

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Posted: 12-31-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2salch0w 
Two things about 1/2 loops:

1. In IJS, using 1/2 loops to create a sequence will actually lose you points. Unless they recently changed it, a sequence of jumps gets a .8 factor. So as difficult as it is to connect a triple toe loop to a triple salchow with a half loop, you lose a bunch of points for doing it. You'd be better off doing 3 sal / 3toe, which is much easier, but worth more.


But they do come in handy to create additional sequences when you've already "used" all of a particular jump in your program. If you've already used both of your loops and both of your toes, there isn't much else to put as a second jump in a combo without using a half loop to link a salchow. That's where I end up using them in my program (granted it's under 6.0 and once I have a consistent axel in my program it will free up a loop jump to use in my sequence instead).

And it can boost your PCS scores (hopefully), or at the very least just make you look cool if you use it before a solo flip to give it a difficult entry. 

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Posted: 01-01-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by RachelSk8er 
But they do come in handy to create additional sequences when you've already "used" all of a particular jump in your program. If you've already used both of your loops and both of your toes, there isn't much else to put as a second jump in a combo without using a half loop to link a salchow. That's where I end up using them in my program (granted it's under 6.0 and once I have a consistent axel in my program it will free up a loop jump to use in my sequence instead).

And it can boost your PCS scores (hopefully), or at the very least just make you look cool if you use it before a solo flip to give it a difficult entry.


Yes, you will see a few high level skaters using the half loop to create a sequence if they have strong triple salchows (like Joannie Rochette). Even at just 80% of the value, a triple jump-half loop-triple salchow can net more points than triple jump+double toe. 

[JimStanmore]

londonicechamp
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Posted: 01-04-2010, 04:32 AM

Hi

My coach finally found out in my lesson last week why I got confused between a loop and a half loop, that is coz I was not doing the loop correctly. So my coach broke down the elements of me for doing a loop.

Now my coach has me glide backward on an outside edge on the right foot, then cross my left foot then jump up twice on that leg, and had me do the proper landing, the one with the left leg still in the cross position, but not throwing it wide apart for the landing. My coach said that when I has this particular move consistently, then I can worry about the full revolution for the loop jump.

londonicechamp 

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Posted: 01-09-2010, 06:13 AM

Hi

I have now been taught the loop jump, from a right foot mohawk entry on the outside.

The problem is now corrected, as after doing about millions of times the landing during my private lesson yesterday, I now know to land with my left foot after the jump. The jump is just baby, but then it is a start to the New Year at least.

londonicechamp 

londonicechamp
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Posted: 01-10-2010, 11:08 AM

Hi Skate@Delaware and sk8lady

I totally agree with your problem with learning the loop before the half loop. I also got confused with the landing foot.

However, during last Friday's private lesson, after doing about millions of them, I now almost land them correctly (though not with a lot of height). I did get myself confused 2/3 times with the half loop, but then I automatically corrected the landing.

I stopped practising the half loop now, as otherwise I will get myself confused again, which I do not want to happen. I just got the loop jump, and do not want to lose them again.

londonicechamp 

Skate@Delaware
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Posted: 01-10-2010, 12:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by londonicechamp 
Hi Skate@Delaware and sk8lady

I totally agree with your problem with learning the loop before the half loop. I also got confused with the landing foot.

However, during last Friday's private lesson, after doing about millions of them, I now almost land them correctly (though not with a lot of height). I did get myself confused 2/3 times with the half loop, but then I automatically corrected the landing.

I stopped practising the half loop now, as otherwise I will get myself confused again, which I do not want to happen. I just got the loop jump, and do not want to lose them again.

londonicechamp


I'm so glad to hear! It is best if you stop doing the half-loop until your loop jump is very solid; once it is I'm sure it will be time for you to start working on the half-loop. It will feel very different by then! 

londonicechamp
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Posted: 01-10-2010, 01:52 PM

Hi Skate@Delaware

Yes, I am only concentrating on practising the loop jump now.

londonicechamp