Do you think the change in juvenile FS rules will improve the quality of jumps

[jumpingbeansmom]

we see at this level.  My daughter did a very clean program this weekend, and still didn't QUITE make the final round...and as we sat waiting her turn for critique, even girls placing above her (and one of them even medaled in the final round) were being told about how many jumps and combos were underrotated.   They apparently had enough combinations to overcome the underrotations anyway compared to my daughters clean combos like 2T 1A, and a 2Ltz Loop Loop, and a Double Flip Single loop. 

I am wondering if limiting the combinations to 2 jumps and only 2 combinations will force kids to have better (cleaner- not underrotated one) jumps with more positive GOE to get good technical points.   Do you think that was motivation for the change?

[kssk8fan]

regardless of the reason for the change, the goal is to have clean jumps, fully rotated with speed into them and the ability to carry the speed throughout the jump resulting in a nice flow out of the jump.  Limiting the jumps in combo and number of combos helps to put the focus on the skating itself.  For this reason, I think it's a great change.  The only downside I see is, at Juvenile, I think we'll be seeing more pressure put on the skater to have a double axel. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

regardless of the reason for the change, the goal is to have clean jumps, fully rotated with speed into them and the ability to carry the speed throughout the jump resulting in a nice flow out of the jump.  Limiting the jumps in combo and number of combos helps to put the focus on the skating itself.  For this reason, I think it's a great change.  The only downside I see is, at Juvenile, I think we'll be seeing more pressure put on the skater to have a double axel. 

What do you mean by 'the skating'-- doesn't the PCS score put some emphasis on the skating, or are you saying that having less packed it might be able to show if they CAN skate well or not.     I do think that there isn't much time (the way it stands prior to June 1) to even do much in between...and I agree about the double axel. 

[kssk8fan]

Learning to skate has nothing to do with IJS scores.  It's about edges, flow, power, etc....  If you don't have good edges or can't garner enough speed, your jumps will be puny, underrotated, and go no where.   Since the IJS was implemented, the quality of skating at the lower levels has decreased (Completely my opinion)!  Yes, pre-juvs and juvs are racking up a lot of points but their skating is, for the most part non-existent.  If the focus would be more on learning the fundamentals of skating, a lot of the habits these young kids are making wouldn't exist.  It makes no sense at all for a kid to do a double lutz, double loop combination in a program if the first jump is underrotated, tiny, no power, etc....  They are just tacking on a double loop for more points.  What is that teaching the kid? 

Sorry if I seem harsh - this question just caught me on a bad day!  Basically, what will separate the scores in juv now will be positive GOE's and of course the infamous  double axel.  Therefore, I think it's a good change.

[Sierra]

I agree!! I see so many Pre-juv/Juv kids at my rink with underrotated doubles. I've seen many underrotated double lutzes with a cheated loop or toe tacked on. And the kids are placing well at Pre-juv and Juv, and sometimes even in Intermediate they are placing decently (though as this point, they only cheat the flips and lutzes). In the bigger competitions, or Regionals, clean jumps tend to win out slightly.

Most of those kids are also working on double axels. But guess what- only the skaters with high, clean doubles actually rotate and land the double axel (along with a few triples).

I was sad to lose the combos since at my level, having good loop combos sets me apart, but for Pre juv and Juv, it will really help to make clean jumps. It'll also benefit me to only have to do two spins- I can probably put together 2 spins that are competitive, but 3 is too much, especially considering practice time.

This might encourage skaters to work harder on their step sequences too. Losing the jump combos and third spin, they would need to look at the step sequence to make up points.

[kssk8fan]

sierra,

another addition to the rule change is the non-leveled step sequence.  It will receive a fixed base score and then positive or negative GOE. This is one more addition that goes along with quality vs quantity. 

[jumpingbeansmom]

Learning to skate has nothing to do with IJS scores.  It's about edges, flow, power, etc....  If you don't have good edges or can't garner enough speed, your jumps will be puny, underrotated, and go no where.   Since the IJS was implemented, the quality of skating at the lower levels has decreased (Completely my opinion)!  Yes, pre-juvs and juvs are racking up a lot of points but their skating is, for the most part non-existent.  If the focus would be more on learning the fundamentals of skating, a lot of the habits these young kids are making wouldn't exist.  It makes no sense at all for a kid to do a double lutz, double loop combination in a program if the first jump is underrotated, tiny, no power, etc....  They are just tacking on a double loop for more points.  What is that teaching the kid? 

Sorry if I seem harsh - this question just caught me on a bad day!  Basically, what will separate the scores in juv now will be positive GOE's and of course the infamous  double axel.  Therefore, I think it's a good change.

I don't disagree...my dd this weekend at only ten managed axel with +goe, double lutz loop loop, double toe axel sequence, double flip loop--- with NO edge violations or underrotations and mostly 0 for GEO, along with level 3 footwork and spins of level 3, 2 AND 2 and didn't make the final round....and yes there were a lot of racking up poorly done combinations.   He PCS score wasn't really lower either, it is just that her coach has her doing the doubles WELL instead of alot of them.

[twirly~girls~mom]

Coming in late on this discussion but I do think that they want to see skaters attempt more difficult jumps even if they aren't perfectly clean, otherwise, they would not have implemented the underotation values that they did last year.  In pre-juv and juv, it's not at all uncommon for a young skater to still be working out some small cheats. It's part of the learning process.  Very few, if any skaters start landing clean jumps right away...so if they are close, many coaches will gamble for the 70%.

I think the rule changes they made were meant to give the skater more time for choreography...nothing more.  And if anything, the changes have turned Juv and Intermediate into even more of a jumping contest being that a well rounded skater who could previously get a level 2 or 3 step sequence and three high level spins is now losing some of that advantage with the choreo sequence and only two spins. I agree with the poster who said it puts more pressure on the skaters in juv to get the 2A (and I think lots more will try it than did in the past) and the same goes for Intermediate with 2A and triples. No matter what, skaters are going to try putting slightly underrotated jumps into the program more often than not...because, points-wise, it's worth it. The key word is SLIGHT underrotations...if your skater is turning out a half turn at the end of the jump, it doesn't make sense to try. Less than that, and it becomes more enticing to put in.

[techskater]

The "<" versus "<<" calls were really implemented by the ISU because (supposedly) of the complaint that the Men's Olympic Champion did not do a quad.  Basically. if you looked at the scoring possibilities last year, unless your quad was squeaky clean, you were better off leaving it out.  As it was, Takahashi got zero points for his (slightly) under-rotated quad toe loop he fell on at the Olympics by the time -3 GOE and the -1 were included.  Basically, the complaint was that elite level skaters were stagnating because anything that was questionable or hard was getting left out. 

[kssk8fan]

Techskater, you're absolutely correct.  I even remember back a couple years ago at PSA where the coaches were told to pretty much stop putting in elements that the skaters couldn't do cleanly.  Granted this was in response to why the IJS results took so long but I think it still pertains to how we build/grow/cultivate quality skaters. 

[techskater]

And I believe in the "ya gotta get it out there sometime" philosophy and so I really LIKE the change.   

[twirly~girls~mom]

And I believe in the "ya gotta get it out there sometime" philosophy and so I really LIKE the change.   

I totally agree.

[Sk8tmum]

Something to consider:  Canadian "scoring" now eliminates the deduction for a fall WITHIN a jump element; the deduction only applies if it happens outside of the element. Thus, they are encouraging skaters to attempt difficult (for them) jumps ... and they've added in technical bonuses (at our lower levels) for 2A and all triples and included the option of adding in another jump if they attempt either of these two ... so, different ways to get skaters to try for more difficult jumps with higher payoffs too.

[Schmeck]

Something to consider:  Canadian "scoring" now eliminates the deduction for a fall WITHIN a jump element; the deduction only applies if it happens outside of the element. Thus, they are encouraging skaters to attempt difficult (for them) jumps ... and they've added in technical bonuses (at our lower levels) for 2A and all triples and included the option of adding in another jump if they attempt either of these two ... so, different ways to get skaters to try for more difficult jumps with higher payoffs too.

Sounds like they are encouraging splatfests - no deduction for a fall in a jump means skaters will be attempting jumps they have no chance of landing, just to get that technical bonus.  Not a competition I'd like to watch.

[Sk8tmum]

Yes, well, they still have the GOE deduction, which is quite hefty, and the under-rotation point deduction.  So, they're trying to eliminate the "double penalty" at the more junior levels.  As at that level, an overall point total on a FS of 40 is quite good ...