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#41
The Pro Shop / Re: affuteur: quand vous affut...
Last post by R45 - March 09, 2025, 08:42:40 PMRoH for hockey players:
A general rule used in Europe to find a suitable radius of hollow (in mm) for adult ice hockey players, is to divide the body weight (in kg) with π (3.14).
Example: if your weight would be 80kg = 80kg /3.14 = 25mm (1").
Hockey players in the US and Canada are generally skating on a smaller RoH than Europeans.
Though, there are by now enough examples in the NHL of players using a very high RoH. Paul Coffey, Mark Messier, Matt Cullen and Sergei Gonchar being some of the most famous ones.
25mm (1") and above may sound extreme, but these players are so good at skating that it is their preference to maximize their glide and speed at the expense of bite.
My advice is: go for the shallowest hollow you feel comfortable with.
The choice of RoH is always a compromise.
With hollows such as 13mm (½ ") the edges are always biting.
The more flatter the hollow becomes the more edge control you have to apply.
At RoH 19 (¾ ") it becomes scary for most of the skaters to change skidding into controlled sliding.
From 25 (1") onwards it's all about good edge control.
You have to try it out to know how much speed and less fatigue you can gain at the expense of bite.
Keep in mind it might take a few skating sessions to utilize the benefits of flatter hollows.
Wally, Skater and Skate Sharpener
A general rule used in Europe to find a suitable radius of hollow (in mm) for adult ice hockey players, is to divide the body weight (in kg) with π (3.14).
Example: if your weight would be 80kg = 80kg /3.14 = 25mm (1").
Hockey players in the US and Canada are generally skating on a smaller RoH than Europeans.
Though, there are by now enough examples in the NHL of players using a very high RoH. Paul Coffey, Mark Messier, Matt Cullen and Sergei Gonchar being some of the most famous ones.
25mm (1") and above may sound extreme, but these players are so good at skating that it is their preference to maximize their glide and speed at the expense of bite.
My advice is: go for the shallowest hollow you feel comfortable with.
The choice of RoH is always a compromise.
With hollows such as 13mm (½ ") the edges are always biting.
The more flatter the hollow becomes the more edge control you have to apply.
At RoH 19 (¾ ") it becomes scary for most of the skaters to change skidding into controlled sliding.
From 25 (1") onwards it's all about good edge control.
You have to try it out to know how much speed and less fatigue you can gain at the expense of bite.
Keep in mind it might take a few skating sessions to utilize the benefits of flatter hollows.
Wally, Skater and Skate Sharpener
#42
The Pro Shop / Re: affuteur: quand vous affut...
Last post by Query - March 09, 2025, 05:42:44 PMThere is no single standard.
I believe studies have shown that the most common hockey ROH in NHL (The major professional league in Canada and Mexico) is 1/2". But the online advice has been that it should depend on the skater's weight and aggressiveness. E.g., a lighter skater, or one who isn't very aggressive skater needs sharper blades, which is taken to mean a lower ROH. The variation with weight and aggressiveness makes sense for figure skaters too.
And I think that most people I know stay with the ROH the blade comes from the factory with - at least on factory pre-sharpened blades. That usually means 7/16" for most figure skating blades, but 3/8" for MK Dance (because it is ground "thinline" - thinner at the bottom of the blade).
But Mike C told me that many people in New York City used 1/4". And for some reason a lot of the hand tool sharpeners available cheap from China are that.
And the few people I've known who did school figures - which is now similar to what is called "skating skills" in the U.S., want longer glides, so they sometimes choose 3/4" or even 1".
I'm not sure if it makes sense to use a different ROH on synthetic (lubricated plastic) ice. Edges wear out so fast that maybe people choose higher ROH??
The best skate techs I've known give the skater what they ask for. Or they try to copy what the skater already has.
Most skate techs remove the sharpening burr, by using a flat stone, slanted slightly inwards towards the centerline of the hollow. That makes the blade less sharp, and the amount of it you use might vary. Coarse grain wheels and stones also produce a less sharp edge than fine grain wheels and stones. And the rocker length affects effective sharpness too. So ROH isn't the only factor in sharpness.
Also, some blades are said to have a dovetail shape - meaning that the sides of the blade near the bottom slant inwards, which means that the angle included between the hollow surface and the sides is less. In theory, that would let you use a longer ROH to get the same angle.
The speed skaters and Nordic ice skaters I've talked to about this say they don't use hollow.
I believe studies have shown that the most common hockey ROH in NHL (The major professional league in Canada and Mexico) is 1/2". But the online advice has been that it should depend on the skater's weight and aggressiveness. E.g., a lighter skater, or one who isn't very aggressive skater needs sharper blades, which is taken to mean a lower ROH. The variation with weight and aggressiveness makes sense for figure skaters too.
And I think that most people I know stay with the ROH the blade comes from the factory with - at least on factory pre-sharpened blades. That usually means 7/16" for most figure skating blades, but 3/8" for MK Dance (because it is ground "thinline" - thinner at the bottom of the blade).
But Mike C told me that many people in New York City used 1/4". And for some reason a lot of the hand tool sharpeners available cheap from China are that.
And the few people I've known who did school figures - which is now similar to what is called "skating skills" in the U.S., want longer glides, so they sometimes choose 3/4" or even 1".
I'm not sure if it makes sense to use a different ROH on synthetic (lubricated plastic) ice. Edges wear out so fast that maybe people choose higher ROH??
The best skate techs I've known give the skater what they ask for. Or they try to copy what the skater already has.
Most skate techs remove the sharpening burr, by using a flat stone, slanted slightly inwards towards the centerline of the hollow. That makes the blade less sharp, and the amount of it you use might vary. Coarse grain wheels and stones also produce a less sharp edge than fine grain wheels and stones. And the rocker length affects effective sharpness too. So ROH isn't the only factor in sharpness.
Also, some blades are said to have a dovetail shape - meaning that the sides of the blade near the bottom slant inwards, which means that the angle included between the hollow surface and the sides is less. In theory, that would let you use a longer ROH to get the same angle.
The speed skaters and Nordic ice skaters I've talked to about this say they don't use hollow.
#43
The Pro Shop / affuteur: quand vous affutez, ...
Last post by marc - March 09, 2025, 02:01:30 PMJe voulais savoir quel roh vous pratiquez dans vos pays?
cela fait 3 ans que j'affute et je vais vous dire les roh que je pratique:
5.5/16 :pour les confirmés, poids normal, pour les sauts simple et double , pour la danse solo niveau national
6/16: pour ceux qui ont un niveau moyen et qui commance à patiner avec un coté de la lame( carre)
6.5/16: pour les débutants, adultes et les patineurs un peu costaud
Je me demande s'ils ne se sont pas habitué à cela ...
quand j'essaie de chercher, je trouve pas grand chose si ce n'est que le roh classique est 1/2 pouce.
Et je me demande si je ne fais pas trop creux....
un ancien patineur de notre club qui faisait les triples saut faisait encore plus creux que 5.5/16 alors que moi je trouve que c'est déjà tres creux!!
Alors je voulais avoir un peu vos avis...
Bien à vous tous dans vos différents pays et merci de m'eclairer un petit peu
cela fait 3 ans que j'affute et je vais vous dire les roh que je pratique:
5.5/16 :pour les confirmés, poids normal, pour les sauts simple et double , pour la danse solo niveau national
6/16: pour ceux qui ont un niveau moyen et qui commance à patiner avec un coté de la lame( carre)
6.5/16: pour les débutants, adultes et les patineurs un peu costaud
Je me demande s'ils ne se sont pas habitué à cela ...
quand j'essaie de chercher, je trouve pas grand chose si ce n'est que le roh classique est 1/2 pouce.
Et je me demande si je ne fais pas trop creux....
un ancien patineur de notre club qui faisait les triples saut faisait encore plus creux que 5.5/16 alors que moi je trouve que c'est déjà tres creux!!
Alors je voulais avoir un peu vos avis...
Bien à vous tous dans vos différents pays et merci de m'eclairer un petit peu
#44
The Pro Shop / Re: Anyone recently bought ful...
Last post by LunarSkater - March 02, 2025, 08:37:17 PMQuote from: Query on February 27, 2025, 02:23:48 PMEach company seems to specialize in particular foot shapes for stock figure skating boots. Why wouldn't a major brand try to take over the market segments for other foot shapes? (I assume they don't have an agreement to stay out of each other's markets.) Many pro shops only carry 1 or 2 brands; I'm sure they would love a supplier who could do it all. And they should be modular in terms of heel height.
It all in how the company has designed their lasts. And since all the equipment is designed around that particular design, it would be a hefty investment to change anything. And for a market as small as roller/ice skates, it's likely not an investment they're willing to take a chance on.
As for your comment about stock boots and modular heels, that't not even a thing in the regular shoe market. Why would a company invest in a product that wouldn't turn a profit? The shoe/boot is designed for a specific heel height in mind. That's why it's listed as an option only for custom boots; it does affect everything.
#45
The Pro Shop / Re: Anyone recently bought ful...
Last post by Query - February 27, 2025, 02:23:48 PMI'm experimenting with the cheap used boots first. I want to see what happens if I cut down the heel. Then I may try some major mods to their blade shapes too. Not experiments I would try first on new boots and blades!
Each company seems to specialize in particular foot shapes for stock figure skating boots. Why wouldn't a major brand try to take over the market segments for other foot shapes? (I assume they don't have an agreement to stay out of each other's markets.) Many pro shops only carry 1 or 2 brands; I'm sure they would love a supplier who could do it all. And they should be modular in terms of heel height.
Each company seems to specialize in particular foot shapes for stock figure skating boots. Why wouldn't a major brand try to take over the market segments for other foot shapes? (I assume they don't have an agreement to stay out of each other's markets.) Many pro shops only carry 1 or 2 brands; I'm sure they would love a supplier who could do it all. And they should be modular in terms of heel height.
#46
The Pro Shop / Re: Anyone recently bought ful...
Last post by tstop4me - February 25, 2025, 04:34:34 PMQuote from: NiceIce on February 25, 2025, 01:47:04 PMYou feet sound similar to mine. I think you should be fine in wide Jacksons. I would go with their leather Elite model. Their coaches Elite is softer flexing. If you want even softer you could have whatever support you want if you go custom. Their Elite models will last much longer than their synthetic models which seem to still have problems with their linings. They look better too IMHO!
Just a minor update. The current Jackson 5300 series leather boots were originally introduced as "Elites" in 2020 (available YouTube videos from that time refer to them as "Elites"). Around 2022, they were rebranded as "Supremes", their current names.
#47
The Pro Shop / Re: Anyone recently bought ful...
Last post by NiceIce - February 25, 2025, 01:47:04 PMDid you get new boots yet?
My partner has had very good results with Jackson customs. Nothing but bad experiences with Aura customs.
You feet sound similar to mine. I think you should be fine in wide Jacksons. I would go with their leather Elite model. Their coaches Elite is softer flexing. If you want even softer you could have whatever support you want if you go custom. Their Elite models will last much longer than their synthetic models which seem to still have problems with their linings. They look better too IMHO!
I would go with a Jackson rep doing the fitting -- then Jackson is responsible for the final fit.
My partner has had very good results with Jackson customs. Nothing but bad experiences with Aura customs.
You feet sound similar to mine. I think you should be fine in wide Jacksons. I would go with their leather Elite model. Their coaches Elite is softer flexing. If you want even softer you could have whatever support you want if you go custom. Their Elite models will last much longer than their synthetic models which seem to still have problems with their linings. They look better too IMHO!
I would go with a Jackson rep doing the fitting -- then Jackson is responsible for the final fit.
#48
The Pro Shop / Re: Good fitter near DC or ups...
Last post by Nate - February 24, 2025, 05:46:01 PMQuote from: Query on January 06, 2025, 09:21:20 PMCustom Harlicks start at $1795, but they are now up to almost 2 years delay.I have a pair of Jackson Supreme size 6W. I probably could send them to you to try on, if needed. I've only worn them like 30 minutes :-P They have P99s on them, though.
Must discourage many people from buying custom boots - maybe me included.
I really, really wish I could find a shop that stocks Jackson Ultima Freestyle boots in mens size 6 (or close) wide, so I could try them on. Maybe they can be wide enough - and I would make an insole to snug the heel and midfoot. But I don't know about the heel height, and the position, orientation and depth of the bend line at the ball of the foot.
Maybe I don't need Jackson Freestyle level boots. I'm doing 1/2 rotation jumps, and never did ice dances past Pre-Bronze. But I'm 140 lbs, and I still try deep edges.
I don't see "Freestyle" boots on Jackson's website - except on the fit guide. I'll call Jackson for info and for store suggestions.
Quote from: AlbaNY on November 22, 2024, 12:18:11 PMYou know I love my Harlicks. I entirely agree with you except that Query probably doesn't want to wait 18 months.They were cheaper than what I am seeing in this thread (also cheaper than what I was quoted when I was considering a pair some years ago), but prices have gone up for a lot of brands, I've noticed.
I don't think I want to know how much custom Grafs are knowing how much my Harlicks added up to.
The Grafs were definitely higher than the full custom SP Teri's that I had ordered some years back, which up until then were the most expensive boots that I had purchased.
The good thing about Risport's "disposable boots" is that they are quite cheap, and they tend to not jack their prices up. So, if you know how long they'll last you, it's easy to budget for them and just rotate them out whenever you're done with them.
I can't help but feel like skating is becoming more inaccessible as the years go by, with every rink increasing ice costs and equipment manufacturers jacking up prices.
#49
The Pro Shop / Re: Different sharpening techn...
Last post by NiceIce - February 22, 2025, 12:21:21 PMQuote from: marc on February 20, 2025, 05:12:22 PMKaitsu a partagé des différents savoir et techniques et ce que j'aurais aimé savoir, c'est comment font les pays asiatiques pour affûter car ils ont de très bons patineurs et eux aussi doivent avoir leur secret/ technique.,.
Ils sont tellement censuré que nous connaissons rien d'eux.
Peut être qu'ils ont leur propre incredible edger copié ou fabriqué chez eux ...
I don't see any great advantage to the IE machine except for the smaller wheel diameter. So I don't see a need for the Chinese to copy it as even a larger wheel sharpens close enough to the toe pick.
The basic needs of a skate sharpener are:
An absolutely flat surface for guiding the skate holder
Wheel motor bearings with no play and mounted square to the table
An accurate means to dress the wheel
A skate holder that can be adjusted for perfect level height from left to right
With a reliable and adaptable skate mounting system
And depending on the machine needs, a method to adjust its angle relative to the wheel
If a sharpening machine can meet these basic needs, then in good hands it can always do an excellent sharpening job. Generally it's just that more expensive machines can be faster to adjust or offer more motors and wheels in one machine.
A basic portable machine like the Wissota can do this as can the big Blade Master and others. If you look on Marketplace in Canada or the US, you can see a variety of machines (some pretty ancient!) for sale that don't cost all that much. I would think that some Chinese and others could have easily bought used ones from North America and brought them back for sharpening. That's what I would do unless I was rich.
As to great skaters needs, I've known skaters to do triples on horribly sharpened blades. But they will not have a great overall performance with blades like that. The young seem to be able to adapt to anything sometimes though!
#50
The Pro Shop / Re: Different sharpening techn...
Last post by NiceIce - February 22, 2025, 12:20:44 PMQuote from: marc on February 20, 2025, 05:12:22 PMNicelse:
Cela a dû mal traduire, et vous avez mal compris
Yes I think the translation didn't work well. And from your question before, yes I have been sharpening for more than 12 years now. Due to my prior experience in machining on CNC and manual mills and other equipment, I was not bad at first, but with experience I found some of the various problems that happen like bowed blades and poorly made blades so I know better what to expect now. And also I found that most skaters don't know what hollow they skate on, and when they get a bad sharpening job all they know is that they "don't feel good" and can't tell you anything specific. Which is OK because one you have them in hand, you can immediately find all the problems.