A new figure skate brand has come to the market. This is very welcome, I would say. They are very close to Ultima´s Matrix series blades. There are pros and cons in these blades. I wish they would use CNC machine to profile grinding. At the moment there are variations in the blade profiles, but so is in the Wilson blades too. I also would hope that profiles would be more closer to the most popular blade models. Its hard to say if higher toe plate (angle) compensates somehow longer touch point length.
https://www.bjornsports.com/products/ (https://www.bjornsports.com/products/)
https://www.bjornsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/fjord-light-eng.pdf (https://www.bjornsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/fjord-light-eng.pdf)
https://youtu.be/JQMDdFmG10w (https://youtu.be/JQMDdFmG10w)
Interesting. Thanks for sharing, Kaitsu.
Thanks for the info, Kaitsu. More competition in figure skating equipment is always welcome.
* The manufacturer's website lists 4 different models of blades. The Fjord Light is similar to Ultima Matrix in that it has a separate chassis plus runner construction. The other 3 models appear to have traditional construction.
* It'll be interesting to see what their marketing strategy is. For a new product to compete with existing products, the new product either (a) has to be comparable to existing products, but much less expensive or (b) has to be superior to existing products. No pricing is given on the website; so we'll need to await pricing to see whether (a) holds. From the specs and your video so far, (b) doesn't appear to hold.
* The website lists 3 grades of steel used for their blades: 3Cr13, 5Cr18pro, and PB Iron 98. I found info only on the 3Cr13: https://bladeprotection.com/3cr13-steel/. It's a relatively low-end stainless steel with 0.3% carbon and 13% chromium. That's straightfoward. My guess is that 5Cr18pro has 0.5% carbon and 18% chromium. The PB Iron 98 (used in the Light) is more perplexing. My guess is that PB does not refer to lead, but perhaps phosphorous and boron? And this is not stainless? Do you have any info on these steels?
* It's interesting that the blades are listed as Made in Hong Kong/Finland. Not sure what that means. Partially manufactured in Hong Kong and partially manufactured in Finland? Or manufactured in Hong Kong for some market countries and manufactured in Finland for other market countries? Either way, Hong Kong appears an odd choice.
Based on a very quick web search, Bjorn prices seem quite competitive:
https://skateshop.fi/en/b184/bj%C3%B8rn
https://skateshop.fi/en/c7853/blades
https://urheiluperhe.com/en/taitoluistelu/blades-skates
https://shop.hockeybase.fi/player-gear/skate-blades-&-holders/bjorn-pro-runner-for-bauer-edge.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqH30R2bCrJArR_y-bHwOEWwL04eQB4R15kKzAm23BO3CN-loNY (hockey)
But if the steel isn't great...
Quote from: Query on September 01, 2024, 01:47:36 PM
Based on a very quick web search, Bjorn prices seem quite competitive:
https://skateshop.fi/en/b184/bj%C3%B8rn
But if the steel isn't great...
Definitely competitive. I'd easily have chosen them for my kid's first/second blades if they'd have been an option just based on the price and her beginner level. It would be hard to go back to unknown steel and the rest of the changes now though unless she basically just messes around on public (which may very well be the case.) In a situation where a growing kid is dipping their toes into the sport these seem like a potentially decent option to compete with the Edea blades or Aspires and such.
I find the higher front compared to 99 interesting. I'm having some joint issues that recently made it feel harder to get onto the back of my blade as much as I was easily used to doing. I can't imagine most skaters would be as keen on it if the higher heel boots common now mean anything. Basically it would be interesting to try them and compare to Pattern 99, not that I feel competent anymore in my skill to judge much accurately.
Quote from: Query on September 01, 2024, 01:47:36 PM
Based on a very quick web search, Bjorn prices seem quite competitive:
https://skateshop.fi/en/b184/bj%C3%B8rn
https://skateshop.fi/en/c7853/blades
https://urheiluperhe.com/en/taitoluistelu/blades-skates
https://shop.hockeybase.fi/player-gear/skate-blades-&-holders/bjorn-pro-runner-for-bauer-edge.html?srsltid=AfmBOoqH30R2bCrJArR_y-bHwOEWwL04eQB4R15kKzAm23BO3CN-loNY (hockey)
But if the steel isn't great...
Those are Finnish websites. So it's not surprising that the prices of domestic Finnish products would be lower than comparable imported products.
Quote from: tstop4me on September 01, 2024, 09:27:43 PM
Those are Finnish websites. So it's not surprising that the prices of domestic Finnish products would be lower than comparable imported products.
True. I failed to do adequate research before posting.
I have sent the following to their contact point for sales in Canada and USA:
Quote
Your website implies you have Canada and U.S.A. sales agents for these blades.
Can you provide contact information for parties that sell your figure skating blades in Canada and the USA?
Or if you sell direct, can you provide prices, shipping costs, and ordering info, to Canada and the USA?
If you answer, I will post your response on a forum used by many figure skaters who might consider buying your equipment. We have a thread about your blades, at
https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8919.msg107477#msg107477
but lack this information.
I am personally most interested in your ice dance blades. Can you tell me the width of the blade at the base that touches the ice?
I will indeed post their response, if they make one.
You know much more about engineering than I do, so maybe I should leave it to you to research the steel alloys, and compare it to the steels used in roughly comparable MK, Wilson, Ultima and Paramount blades. Of course, alloy alone is not sufficient to determine main body or edge hardness.
I will post longer reply later when I have more time.
I do have very limited experience of these blades and second hand information about the steel gliding proterties. Steel was easy to cut and leaves nice surface finish. It leaves a bit bigger grinding burrs, like most of the stainless steels, but this was not any issue to me. Second hand information says that blades does have excellent gliding properties. If the steel is custom made mixture, it explains "non-standard" material marking.
This direct translation from one web page. I am not sure if this all is valid also to their figure skate blades. They do also blades for hockeys.
Our blade material is a unique stainless steel. With our technology, we do not burn the blade during the cutting process. We are the only one that does not use laser cutting because it changes the properties of the steel. We get a better glide and it keeps its properties longer.
The development process has lasted more than 2 years, the quality of the steel has been developed together with LUT (Lapeenranta University of Technology). We wanted to make sure that the material was tested and approved.
They were a bit difficult to get a response from. Perhaps they are more interested in finding dealers than in responding to individual customers. But I got a text reply from the North American contact an hour ago:
QuoteHi there. I own Bjorn Sports NA. Just getting into the figure skating products. Been focused on the hockey stuff. I've reached out to Finland to get the info you asked for. I'm out of Halifax NS.
I have thanked him/her for the courtesy of his/her reply, and await further info.
Bjorn Sports North America has a facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/bjornsports. The page mostly focuses on available hockey skills sessions.
Bjorn Sports (Finland) has a facebook page too: https://www.facebook.com/bjornofscandinavia
AFAICT, neither lists prices or a dealer network. Obviously a bit new to this.
After making few calls, it seems they are so new player in the figure skate blades that there is still lots of development work in their plans. This is probably the reason why there is still difficulties to find dealers / information. SkateShop is the official dealer in Europe, so all orders inside the Europe goes trough them.
If you could order "customized blades", what are the features you would like have in "option list"? For example...
1. Can you name some blade profiles which should absolutely be in the "option list", like Paramount skates does?
2. Would you like to choose certain spinning rocker (referred to previous), but have opportunity to choose 7, 8 or 9 foots main rocker or would you like to have even flatter main rocker?
3. Is there some specific heel lift you would like your blades to have?
4. Do you like Ultima´s flatter spinning rocker (longer touch point length) or more rounder spinning rocker (shorter touch point length) like in example Gold Seals?
5. What else should be in your dream blades?
Customizing traditional steel blades might be way too complex / expensive process in mass production. So I think above mentioned example options could realistic only in Aluminum chassis blades and their stell runners. If it is so, do you think this would be absolute deal breaker, means you buy only traditional steel blades?
For me a main point would be how easily custom blades could be sharpened. Parallel sides and nothing fancy to get in the way. I loved parabolic Coronation Aces but can't choose them or use Gold Seals that I have thanks to sharpening hassles.
It would be super interesting if we could choose such details about the rockers. It's a pretty expensive thing to experiment with though. :D
I didn't mind the flatness of Ultimas for spinning and haven't found a massive difference in the various blades I briefly tried, like Phantoms. The only really noticeable trials were rental blades.
Weren't there some sort of interchangeable figure blades made at some point? Like the runner part could be switched out? That would be amazing to bring back with options for variables although the chassis would probably go against my first want regarding sharpening.
Was it Coronation Comet that had a 9.5" rocker? I've been curious about that but whatever blade it was is discontinued.
The Coronation Comet had an 8.5' rocker.
I compiled a document of all blades available back in 2014 and cited manufacturer's specifications. Here's a link to a PDF although it is now a little dated...
https://www.afterness.com/skating/skate_blade_comparison.pdf (https://www.afterness.com/skating/skate_blade_comparison.pdf)
As you can see in the PDF, the 8.5' Comet was unusual in a sea of 7' and 8' rockers.
Quote from: Bill_S on September 14, 2024, 06:56:07 PM
The Coronation Comet had an 8.5' rocker.
I compiled a document of all blades available back in 2014 and cited manufacturer's specifications. Here's a link to a PDF although it is now a little dated...
https://www.afterness.com/skating/skate_blade_comparison.pdf (https://www.afterness.com/skating/skate_blade_comparison.pdf)
As you can see in the PDF, the 8.5' Comet was unusual in a sea of 7' and 8' rockers.
Oof. I clearly remembered a bit wrong! 9 1/2 would be closer to speed skates or skis, I guess. :D
It's still longer and something I wish I could have tried though. I wonder if anyone did any research or polling about it since 7 and 8' are the norm? Some people must have really liked them, and I wonder how that would merge with the type of skating skills done or sought after. I'm kind of thinking about how different blades were long ago when figures were the main thing and how they changed as multi-rotational jumps became more of a feature. I loved watching the YouTube video of a woman who tried out skates that as I recall are now a hundred years old.
Quote from: AlbaNY on September 14, 2024, 03:55:43 PM
For me a main point would be how easily custom blades could be sharpened. Parallel sides and nothing fancy to get in the way. I loved parabolic Coronation Aces but can't choose them or use Gold Seals that I have thanks to sharpening hassles.
It would be super interesting if we could choose such details about the rockers. It's a pretty expensive thing to experiment with though. :D
I didn't mind the flatness of Ultimas for spinning and haven't found a massive difference in the various blades I briefly tried, like Phantoms. The only really noticeable trials were rental blades.
Weren't there some sort of interchangeable figure blades made at some point? Like the runner part could be switched out? That would be amazing to bring back with options for variables although the chassis would probably go against my first want regarding sharpening.
Was it Coronation Comet that had a 9.5" rocker? I've been curious about that but whatever blade it was is discontinued.
I think the MK Phantom is a GOAT blade, and I'm astonished it isn't more popular.
I think some blades suffer due to how much blade choice is based on word of mouth recommendation from coaches and other skaters.
Spinning on the Pinnacle was hard, and that has a similar profile to the Ultima Supreme. high Stanchion. Flat blade. Low Lift Angle. I felt like I was teetering on an edge on the entrance, and then it was hard to center and maintain speed.
Nate, my coach in NY loved Phantoms for herself. I'm not really sure why I ended up in Pattern 99s with her approval given how much she loves Phantoms.
The fitter I saw mentioned them, and she agreed I'd like them.
I think you are quite correct about the word of mouth and popularity aspect. Same for boots too.
In NY blades and boots were a much bigger topic, but in Germany Ultimas are really popular and MK Proffesionals from what I can tell from people I met. I never found another skater with Pattern 99, Phantoms, or even Coronation Ace yet at any of the rinks I've frequented in the past year+. I do think someone had Gold Seals? Maybe.
Quote from: Nate on September 18, 2024, 12:03:26 PM
I think some blades suffer due to how much blade choice is based on word of mouth recommendation from coaches and other skaters.
Yes, this has its limitations, but what would you suggest as a realistic alternative? As we've discussed before, it would be great if some business rented out blades for skaters to try out, but there doesn't appear to be any. With few exceptions, blades are non-returnable once they're mounted and sharpened. So for most skaters, it's not feasible to try out several. Bill's comparative study was an exception, spurred on mainly by intellectual curiosity (plus he had the money). Also, it makes a big difference whether you are still in the process of learning particular moves, rather than already proficient at them. With any blade, there is a period of adaptation. If you are already proficient, you can readily decide whether one blade works better than another (for you). But if you are still in the process of learning, it's hard to judge whether it's your skill or the blade.
Tstop, I am no amazing skater and have only a few years under my belt. However, I truly believe that basically any skater can use any blade well with a bit of time on it. Rentals are a problem since they get switched up, but basically we can adapt to and get comfortable with any of them out there.
I do wish there was a rental service or some other way for people to try various options, but overall I think skaters adjust. That's my own experience anyway with... whatever comes on Jackson Softecs, Aspire XPs, Pattern 99, Phantom, figure rentals, hockey rentals at two rinks, Coronation Ace, and I forget if I am missing anything else in under 4 years on the ice. I could do everything on the blades aside from the rentals, even before I was what I'd consider a "good" skater with a solid foundation.
I think a large part of the problem with rentals, at the rinks I've tried them, is that they are rarely sharpened well. It isn't a priority to do a good job, even at shops where someone has some idea of what they are doing, because apparently it doesn't make good economic sense to spend the time to do a good job. Plus the steel isn't all that high quality to begin with, so they wear out fast.
It doesn't help any that some rental users don't take very good care of rental equipment. (Same problem applies to boots.)
Kaitsu, when you said BJØRN blades were easy to sharpen, do you mean that the metal is soft, and is therefore easily removed - and would presumably not last very long either? Which blades did you sharpen?
You're right about the rentals for sure. Even when I sharpened them myself for the trial the feel was so crummy with the blade changes from all the previous damage and poorly done sharpenings altering the rockers. Nasty things! :D (I'd take having my own pair of recreational skates over rentals any day, like the Softecs.)
OTOH, maybe a business could exist that rented high quality well maintained blades, under supervision (so people didn't misuse them, e.g., by stepping off ice without a guard. And there would be the problem with re-mounting blades, which is non-trivial, and sometimes requires repairing mounting holes.
But, AFAIK, no such business exists. And there probably couldn't viably exist more than a few such businesses in the world.
Quote from: Query on September 20, 2024, 08:51:29 PM
Kaitsu, when you said BJØRN blades were easy to sharpen, do you mean that the metal is soft, and is therefore easily removed - and would presumably not last very long either? Which blades did you sharpen?
With easy to sharpen I mean they were not like some cheap junky stainless steel blades where you feel that your grinding wheel is the only thing which is loosing some material.
Often its hard to say if what you can feel during grinding passes are coming from harness or just your wheel cutting properties. Also amount of sparks fools easily brains. No sparks, no material removal, even you would remove same amount of metal than from the carbon steel. Or if the carbon steel has lots of carbon, you can see heavy sprak spray pattern.
Most likely hardness is close to example Matrix blades.
Perhaps after more experience sharpening the skater's blades, and asking them roughly how many hours they have skated between sharpenings, you can tell whether the steel is any good, for this purpose. If it lasts reasonably long, and doesn't rust, maybe they are good blades.
Quote from: tstop4me on September 19, 2024, 05:41:46 PMYes, this has its limitations, but what would you suggest as a realistic alternative? As we've discussed before, it would be great if some business rented out blades for skaters to try out, but there doesn't appear to be any. With few exceptions, blades are non-returnable once they're mounted and sharpened. So for most skaters, it's not feasible to try out several. Bill's comparative study was an exception, spurred on mainly by intellectual curiosity (plus he had the money). Also, it makes a big difference whether you are still in the process of learning particular moves, rather than already proficient at them. With any blade, there is a period of adaptation. If you are already proficient, you can readily decide whether one blade works better than another (for you). But if you are still in the process of learning, it's hard to judge whether it's your skill or the blade.
If a coach isn't knowledgeable enough to look at a skater (and their skating) and know if a different choice in equipment would benefit them (vs. having a default recommendation for everyone), then the realistic alternative is for them to stop advising skaters and send them to someone who is equipped to do so.
It can be another coach. It can be a tech. But, do find someone else.
Choosing an optimal rocker profile for a skater is as important as getting well-fitted boots, IMO.
Quote from: Nate on April 12, 2025, 08:29:52 PMIf a coach isn't knowledgeable enough to look at a skater (and their skating) and know if a different choice in equipment would benefit them (vs. having a default recommendation for everyone), then the realistic alternative is for them to stop advising skaters and send them to someone who is equipped to do so.
It can be another coach. It can be a tech. But, do find someone else.
Choosing an optimal rocker profile for a skater is as important as getting well-fitted boots, IMO.
In principle, sounds great. In practice, however,
* How many coaches do you know who have the capability of analyzing a skater's performance on ice (with the skater's current equipment) and, based on their analysis, determining the optimal blade for the skater? And, of the coaches who do have this capability, how many are willing to offer their services to skaters being trained by other coaches who do not have this capability?
* How many skate techs do you know who have this capability? And. of the skate techs who do have this capability, how many work at a shop based in an ice rink where they can analyze a skater's performance? [I skate primarily at one rink, and occasionally at three other rinks. My primary rink, and one other rink, have no skate shop. The other two rinks have skate shops, but they are heavily focussed on hockey.]
1. I didn't state that many coaches didn't know this, or how to do this. I stated that coaches that didn't, shouldn't.
I was clear in my post. I even stated that this other person can be a another coach.
If you have a skater who has issues with lift angle on an MK Pro, then telling them to go to Gold Seal or Gold Star over Phantom or Pattern 99 is crazy, to me, as that blade would actually exacerbate the issue.
The coach should have an idea of how those blades are profiled and how those profiles may (or will) affect a skater's individual performance. They should also be able to notice issues that the skater is having which may be due to the profile of the blade simply not being a good match for them. "Technique" cannot fix everything. Human bodies differ. It's why the different blades exist.
As I've stated. If they aren't equipped to do that analysis or answer those questions, then they should not be making equipment recommendations and leave it to people who are equipped to do so. The coach should be able to refer the skater to someone [else] who has the experience and/or expertise to do this. That's part of their job.
2. I used to travel 3 hours (each way) for a sharpening and mount adjustment, so I have been in that situation before. However, that's not relevant to the point that I am making.
Who you take advice from is your personal choice. However, a coach who is not equipped to do this isn't obligated to answer your questions. IMO, they are professionally obligated to refuse and refer you to someone who is a better fit for this.
Once you've chosen the optimal equipment, I'm pretty sure there is someone local who can plop the blades onto your boots. You may or may not have to travel at all. Sometimes, the issue is pretty obvious, and the Pro (or Coach) can simply move you over from something like an MK Pro to a Pattern or Phantom that will alleviate the issues you're having with that specific blade (sticking to my example).
That is a completely different scenario from Coach_01 saying "I put all of my students on 99/GS." with practically no other considerations taken into account - and a skater/parent blindly running out to buy them.
Many go through all of this trouble to find the best boot for their feet, but "I put XYZ in ABC" seems good enough for them to choose a blade? Suboptimal blade choice can zero out optimal boot choice - and be just as terrible.
My point was, How many coaches do know how to do this? And, of those who do, how many are willing to service skaters that they don't personally coach (that is, skaters of coaches who don't know how)?
If the answer to the first question is very few, and the answer to the second question is practically none, then we don't have a viable solution.
In my experience, very few coaches understand how to select a blade based on the characteristics of the rocker or even understand about making sure the skater's tech can sharpen the recommended blade. Most of it seems to be based on price, marketing hype, or just wearing what your coach wears because you hope to skate like that coach.
I hear skaters say things like "I have Pattern 99s and I love them". But can they tell me what they love about them? Nope.
My dream is for there to be a functional way to mount blades on boots non-destructively with a fine-adjustment system built in (like snowboard bindings) so you can try different blades or experiment with blade placement. Then we could rent demo blades, just like renting demo skis at a resort, and see if we really love those Pattern 99s after all...but that would require a revolution in sole-making that I don't think the boot manufacturers are likely to want to participate in.
Quote from: supersharp on April 18, 2025, 10:04:59 PMIn my experience, very few coaches understand how to select a blade based on the characteristics of the rocker or even understand about making sure the skater's tech can sharpen the recommended blade. Most of it seems to be based on price, marketing hype, or just wearing what your coach wears because you hope to skate like that coach.
I hear skaters say things like "I have Pattern 99s and I love them". But can they tell me what they love about them? Nope.
The above is reality.
Quote from: supersharp on April 18, 2025, 10:04:59 PMMy dream is for there to be a functional way to mount blades on boots non-destructively with a fine-adjustment system built in (like snowboard bindings) so you can try different blades or experiment with blade placement. Then we could rent demo blades, just like renting demo skis at a resort, and see if we really love those Pattern 99s after all...but that would require a revolution in sole-making that I don't think the boot manufacturers are likely to want to participate in.
The above is wishful thinking.
I'm glad to see you carefully distinguish the two. ;)
It would be amazing if skaters could test many blades.
I tried several, and I don't have the skill to really have tested them, but I did have some preferences. (I like Pattern 99, Coronation Ace were the best, Phantoms were not my cup of tea, rentals of various types are useless...
Quote from: supersharp on April 18, 2025, 10:04:59 PMMy dream is for there to be a functional way to mount blades on boots non-destructively with a fine-adjustment system built in (like snowboard bindings) so you can try different blades or experiment with blade placement. Then we could rent demo blades, just like renting demo skis at a resort, and see if we really love those Pattern 99s after all...but that would require a revolution in sole-making that I don't think the boot manufacturers are likely to want to participate in.
If you design and make your own blades and mounting systems, they can have all the parameters you want! Maybe some of the people on this forum and others would buy them from you, if the price was right.
:)
Quote from: supersharp on April 18, 2025, 10:04:59 PMIn my experience, very few coaches understand how to select a blade based on the characteristics of the rocker <snip>
I disagree with that - most coaches do understand these points and are consulted by their skating families and the fitter for direction. USFS has an actual course on boots and blades for coaches. Each manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request.
We also have to consider what the skater specializes in, or struggles with, in their skating. Dancers and synchro skaters need blades with a shorter tail. Spins struggles can be reduced with a shorter rocker radius. Jumps improve with a longer RR and tails.
There's a lot of moving parts and given the cost of equipment, few skaters have multiple pairs of skates.
Perhaps the coaches near you don't do their homework, but I assure you, we do in my area.
@FigureSpins
I have to say that I one of those whom has not done home work properly. Could you post us blade profile specs of the blades you mentioned. From example blades you keep most popular in your area.
Have you ever verified that blades are meeting their specifications?
Could you explain also benefits of the side honed blades, like JW Gold Seal? I do have difficulties to understand benefits of side honing.
Can you also explain me why Coronation Ace and Coronation Ace Lite seems to have very different profile?
My point is, how USFS trains people to understand that blades with same model name are not necessary same as 10 or 20 years ago?
"Side honing" means different things to different people" Could these answer any of your questions regarding the supposed benefits?
https://patents.google.com/patent/US6523835B1/en
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Schematic-illustration-of-the-cross-sectional-shapes-of-a-standard-blade-STD-and-of_fig1_5243786
You might also look at
https://scarletskater.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/blade-profiles/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3gMYm18bdA
I think you will find that most blade manufacturers don't choose to give full specs, for many different reasons.
It would be nice if there were "design" or "utility" patents for specific blade shapes. But I'm not sure patent offices would accept such patents. In any event, the details might change with the nominal length of the blade.
Quote from: FigureSpins on June 20, 2025, 09:51:28 AMEach manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request.
Have you actually requested specs and received satisfactory answers? Around 10 yrs ago, when I retired and got re-interested in figure skating, I did contact major blade manufacturers at the time (Wilson, MK, Ultima, Paramount, Eclipse, SkateScience) for specs, including spin rocker profile, grade of steel, and hardness (as well as others). Only Eclipse gave me satisfactory answers. Two were openly hostile (treating me as if I were a spy trying to get hold of trade secrets). Otherwise, I only got vague marketing hype, such as "We use only the finest quality carbon steel!" or "This blade is the king of spin!"
See the thread I just posted on a CAD design for a particular figure skating blade that someone (not me!) put on a website:
https://skatingforums.com/index.php?board=25.0
Does that thread I just posted answer your question?
Or were you hoping for manufacturer specifications, rather than someone's measurements that might have been based on one blade, and of just one blade length within that model?
It isn't obvious that it would benefit the blade manufacturer to openly provide such specifications to the public.
I could understand why a manufacturer might openly provide specifications for a part that they want manufactured by many competing companies. E.g., I am told that cars are so complicated that even major car makers subcontract to many companies to provide parts like seats and radios. Perhaps, though I'm not sure, they openly publish the specifications for the interface between the car and the seat or radio. But in the case of this blade, there is a single manufacturer. (Perhaps they buy the blanks from a steel mill - but that might be just one steel mill, and it might be beneficial to both companies to keep the details proprietary.)
Or have I got that wrong?
Quote from: Query on June 29, 2025, 02:55:19 PMDoes that thread I just posted answer your question?
Who are you addressing? If it's me, the answer is , "No."
tstop4me: I was mostly addressing Kaitsu's question in response to FigureSpin's post
QuoteCould you post us blade profile specs of the blades you mentioned. From example blades you keep most popular in your area.
FigureSpin did not mention specific blade models. Alba mentioned MK Phantom blades. My thread gave CAD drawings that for MK Phantom - though maybe measured, not from manufacturer specifications.
I wonder if HD Sports even knows the metallurgical properties (like hardness) of the blanks that I assume the blades are cut from - if the blanks are made by a separate mill.
Maybe they try to maintain an average edge hardness - though that costs time and money - but it's uncertain that they would try to specify to the steel mill the precise hardness the of rest of the blade. You said you were mostly unable to obtain that info from manufacturers. I once tried to obtain proifles from MK, JW and Ultima. MK and JW did not respond. Ultima was unable to tell me (I think they didn't know, because the lady put me on hold while she tried to find out) whether the Matrix 1 Runner shapes had the same profiles as the corresponding non-Matrix models with the same name - which seemed a pretty basic customer question.
A few skate techs told me that they bought the profile guides that MK used to sell - I guess something cut to the same shape?? But even if it had the same rocker radii, they presumably did not give the segment lengths for each size blade. One skate tech told me he thought there were problems with those guides.
It would only make sense to publish specs if they could be covered by a design patent - i.e. if they could be proven to be novel and not obvious. Many people have claimed rocker profiles aren't (or was that self serving?) but I wonder if toepick size and shape are??
Broadbent briefly posted Goldquest blade shape parameters, which I think he said were based on an MK or JW blade - but he very quickly took that down, and I hadn't recorded it, nor could find it at archive.org. :(
Query: Both my question and Kaitsu's question were triggered in response to this claim by FigureSpins:
Quote from: FigureSpins on June 20, 2025, 09:51:28 AMEach manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request.
I don't see how your post of CAD renditions of a single blade by an unknown source and no details of methodology is pertinent to manufacturer's specs; in particular, as FigureSpins claims, specs available upon request from each manufacturer.
Quote from: FigureSpins on June 20, 2025, 09:51:28 AMEach manufacturer posts videos and blogs along with specs available on request.
Huh? Where are these posted? Do you have any examples you could point to? Or is it only registered dealers who can see the information?
Quote from: Query on July 02, 2025, 05:35:39 PMHuh? Where are these posted? Do you have any examples you could point to? Or is it only registered dealers who can see the information?
Mamma mia!
Yes, I have received answers from vendors, although I ask most of my questions at in-person trade shows and competitions, not via email. I do identify myself as a coach asking on behalf of my skating students, so maybe that makes them more attentive to their answers?
At one point, I asked the blade manufacturers the ROH and Radii for specific blade models that didn't have the info in their catalogs. I was assembling a reference chart for myself, so even the introductory blade measurements were important.
Jackson responded to an email about Ultima blades having an issue with chroming, saying that it was cosmetic and they used a certain steel underneath the chrome coating. They had a dealer replace the blades for freee.
MK blades responded to an inquiry form asking about rust appearing where carbon fiber stanchions connected to the runners. Again, they said the problem was cosmetic but surprisingly enough, they didn't blame the skater for their skate-drying habits. MK offered several solutions and said that if it looked structural, send them photos and they'd arrange for replacements.
SkateScience was actually the most responsive via email - I asked about rocker profile, roh and materials. If I remember correctly, I asked about the lack of chrome reveal and they were up front about it being different-looking but the materials were better.
I don't think I emailed Riedell; they were in person, but they were very helpful. In fact, one of their reps pulled out a competing blade and compared the features and materials in person.
Maybe it's just the coaching status that makes them take my questions seriously? I'm pretty much a "cut the crap" person in non-skating situations, too. (Think auto shops and software vendors, lol.)
As to the question about coaches' information, each of the major blade vendors share their informational videos with us but most of those videos are online via their websites or youtube. The more tech-savvy distributors/resellers add the videos as well, although Kinzie's Closet had the most info.
There are video courses available to coaches on our eLearning platform. I completed one (with a 100% score!) for my CEU requirements this year, but the PSA and Jackson shared content before Coach ICE.
Quote from: tstop4me on June 27, 2025, 04:21:47 PMHave you actually requested specs and received satisfactory answers? <snip>
Quote from: FigureSpins on July 08, 2025, 10:18:14 AMYes, I have received answers from vendors, although I ask most of my questions at in-person trade shows and competitions, not via email. I do identify myself as a coach asking on behalf of my skating students, so maybe that makes them more attentive to their answers? ...
Thanks for your response. Perhaps your standing as a coach and the circumstances under which you asked helped get responses.
Did you get actual details of the spin rocker profiles? So far, the only published numbers I've seen are from Paramount ["Blade Profiles" https://www.paramountskates.com/videos], which measured various MK and Wilson blades with a 3-point radius gauge (they didn't say how many samples) and concluded there were only 3 different MK and Wilson spin rocker profiles: 12" radius, 17" radius, and 12"/27" compound radii. Paramount went on to pattern their blades after these 3 spin rocker profiles. As far as I can tell, various blogs and write-ups have copied the Paramount info without attribution; and readers are misled into thinking they are MK and Wilson specs.
The Wilson website characterizes their spin rocker profiles merely as "standard, subtle, or aggressive"; no numerical values of radii. The MK website provides even less info.
So did MK and Wilson provide you with manufacturers' specs (numerical values of radii) for their spin rocker profiles? If so, are they in agreement with Paramount's values? [If I recall correctly, Bill's measurements weren't.]
Many skate techs claim that over the decades, MK and JW blades have changed shapes a good deal. Is the same true for other blade manufacturers?
What I found on manufacturer websites said relatively little about spin rockers, and nothing at all about rocker segment lengths (and how they are scaled with nominal blade length), detailed toepick shapes or positions. And very little information on width - not overall width, let alone width variations, either near the bottom of the blade, or along the portions that blade holders grab. Nor about tempering and hardening zones. Sometimes they specify the steel alloy, but sometimes just the general alloy family. Did you get more?
I gave up on making my own blades (http://mgrunes.com/boots/DrawBlade/index.html) because I don't understand metallurgy. I hoped to get fairly accurate profile and toepick measurements from web page photographs at flat side angles that had fairly high resolution. But photographers and advertisers try to complicate the file formats enough that I would do screen capture from a web browser, and normalize the sizes by manufacturer provided (main) rocker lengths. But cameras and scanners have distortions due to projections and non-uniformities, and photos are based on one sample blade. I planned to modify them anyway, so didn't care, but you might.
To: Forum Admin.
I recommend that this thread be split. I've reviewed all the posts.
Posts 1-9, 17, 20, and 21 are pertinent to the original thread.
The other posts should be spun off to another thread, with a title along the lines of:
"Obtaining Details on Blades and How to Choose a Blade".
Could anyone who speaks English as their native language explain what Bjørn is trying to communicate with this text printed on their blade box? I don't understand it—and neither does AI.
Quote from: Kaitsu on August 10, 2026, 03:05:50 PMCould anyone who speaks English as their native language explain what Bjørn is trying to communicate with this text printed on their blade box? I don't understand it—and neither does AI.
It makes no sense to me. Probably a poor translation from the Finnish. (And I'm someone with a background in solid-state physics and materials science and engineering).
It makes no sense to me either.
Agreed. Makes no sense.
I agree that a "material" does not have an inherent thickness - unless perhaps you are talking about certain monomolecular structures, or certain other structures with a very specific # of molecular layers.
But I interpret it as meaning that they buy or make or modify plate steel - or blade blanks - that are unusually uniform in thickness. Or at least they are claiming that they are more uniform in thickness than at least some of their competitors.
Anyway, the quote is an ad. Ads often don't make sense in a technical sense. As long as they help sell the product, technical accuracy is secondary, and may even interfere with sales.
I would be curious: Do you (Kaitsu) find BJØRN & FJØRD blades to be more consistent in shape (including blade thickness at the base, where the blade meets the ice) from the factory than the leading brands, such as MK, JW, Jackson Ultima, Paramount, Eclipse? I would think such a measurement from a third party more useful than advertising claims from a manufacturer or distributor.
At this point, you have dealt with a number of BJØRN & FJØRD blades, right? Do you have overall opinions of them in general, and the consistency with with their shapes as delivered, as compared to the leading brands? Do you believe most figure skaters should consider them, and if they have the resources, try them out?
Quote from: Kaitsu on August 10, 2026, 03:05:50 PMCould anyone who speaks English as their native language explain what Bjørn is trying to communicate with this text printed on their blade box? I don't understand it—and neither does AI.
To me it reads as marketing "bull(blocked)." Like some lawyers decided this wording sounds good but doesn't open them up to lawsuits. I could just be a jaded American with my interpretation though?
I can say that very equal blades might be a nice offering. The ones I may send of to you are probably older than me (40) and the thickness is very easy to tell not the same using a ProFiler to sharpen.
I'm going to say again, as I always do, that a skilled skater can use basically any blade and too much is made of these details. Whether to spend on them or advise something it would be nice to know details though.
Quote from: Query on August 14, 2026, 12:09:33 PMAnyway, the quote is an ad. Ads often don't make sense in a technical sense. As long as they help sell the product, technical accuracy is secondary, and may even interfere with sales.
Huh??? First you say that the point of an ad is to help sales, and that sacrificing technical accuracy is OK in an ad. But then you say that sacrificing technical accuracy may even interfere with sales; and I interpret "may even interfere with sales" to mean "may hurt sales". ETA: Or did you mean that technical accuracy
per se may hurt sales?
Quote from: AlbaNY on August 15, 2026, 04:59:15 AMTo me it reads as marketing "bull(blocked)." Like some lawyers decided this wording sounds good but doesn't open them up to lawsuits. I could just be a jaded American with my interpretation though?
Marketing hype often elicits a "Huh???" from me. In this instance, we likely have original Finnish marketing hype further exacerbated by translation into English. My initial reaction is that the ad was trying to highlight several key features, but they got mushed together into a nonsensical single cause-and-effects proclamation.
I have a friend who is proficient in many languages, fluent in at least 5. She once told me that Finnish was one of the most difficult languages she ever attempted to learn. I remember her joking, "Finnish is so difficult, even the Finns don't understand it!"
Quote from: Query on August 14, 2026, 12:09:33 PMBut I interpret it as meaning that they buy or make or modify plate steel - or blade blanks - that are unusually uniform in thickness. Or at least they are claiming that they are more uniform in thickness than at least some of their competitors.
Purely for the sake of discussion, let's assume that your interpretation is correct. Care to explain how extreme uniformity in thickness of the initial blanks "makes the blades more resilient and scratchproof"?
Quote from: tstop4me on August 17, 2026, 06:54:29 AMPurely for the sake of discussion, let's assume that your interpretation is correct. Care to explain how extreme uniformity in thickness of the initial blanks "makes the blades more resilient and scratchproof"?
Not really.
I didn't say, BTW, that sacrificing technical accuracy is "OK" in an ad. I Just think it is pretty common, and should be expected.
I really only care much about the working surface. If a blade had unusually large variation in thickness on the working surface, that didn't serve a specific purpose, I would consider that a defect.
But I consider unintentional bottom rocker profile variation, as well as blade warpage, to be a lot more common and significant than microscopic variation in blade thickness and smoothness. From my perspective, only the working surface, that touches the ice, matters much. Though it would also be nice if the mounting holes were in exactly the same place for all blades of a given size.
That said, from a skate sharpener's perspective, blade thickness consistency matters a lot. Because they have to re-center the wheel on the blade, from one blade to the next, if it varies.
But more resilient and "scratchproof" (whatever that means)? No, I don't get it. That's what I meant by it's an ad. I don't expect much technical accuracy.
I didn't intend to start a battle here. I just meant that companies market things with strange claims and have for at least 100 years.
The blades I mentioned will probably be mailed off whether or not I use them, because Kaitsu compiles a lot of information for all of us. The blades I have are not Bjorn but have a noticeable difference in thickness of blade. Not really in the functional area anyway so maybe that part is fine?
Either way I personally read this as marketing speak on the Bjorn brand's side.
ETA: I'd love to spell right first try once in my life.
I think we can all agree that the intention behind BJØRN's marketing text was probably to give international customers the impression of high-quality blades made from some kind of unique steel, combined with exceptional craftsmanship and manufacturing precision. Instead, they somehow managed to produce a text that people seem to struggle to understand regardless of where they are from. At this point, I personally find it embarrassing enough that I would seriously consider covering the text on the boxes with a sticker. I doubt the current wording is going to shake the position of the established market leaders.
Unfortunately, the issues I have seen do not seem to be limited to English translation or marketing. In my opinion, having supposedly unique steel does not offer much comfort if there are obvious problems with the actual blade profiles.
As I understand it, BJØRN originally specialized in hockey blades, which are very commonly profiled by the customer, skate technician, or retailer before use. Figure-skating blades are a very different product in this respect. Their factory profile is an essential part of the blade's design and performance, and the customer generally expects that geometry to be correct straight out of the box. Sometimes I wonder whether BJØRN has fully appreciated just how important this difference is.
If their figure-skating blades are being outsourced to a low-cost manufacturer, and communication with that supplier is on the same level as the English used on the packaging, it would not be particularly surprising if there were difficulties with specifications, manufacturing consistency, and quality control. Of course, I do not know enough about their actual manufacturing arrangements to say whether this is the case, but it is one possible explanation for some of the issues I have seen.
It is understandable that a relatively new product may have some initial problems, but I still think many of them could have been handled better. Personally, I would have entered the market with the product and its presentation somewhat better prepared.
That said, I freely admit that my own quality standards are quite high, and occasionally I even ask myself whether I am expecting an unnecessarily high level of quality. That thought often crosses my mind when I see the condition in which some blades leave the factory—and, perhaps even more surprisingly, how badly some blades have been damaged by "professional" sharpening while the skaters continue to use them perfectly happily.
Sometimes it seems that, as long as the blade has the right brand name and model engraved on it, that alone is enough. And for exactly the same reason, it is extremely difficult for new brands to establish themselves in the market.