Am I spoiled or is the coach negligent?

[jjane45]

So far I've been really lucky with group lesson coaches on freestyle level, but this session I am stuck with someone from whom I switched away last session after the first class.

The first 30 minutes of lesson time is spent on group warm up, and the second half is freestyle instruction. He would make everyone practice say camel spin and engages the assistant coach in extended conversations without paying attention to the students at all. Ten minutes would go by before he even lifts his eyes, then he throws a few words at the students, and goes into the penalty box to talk on the cellphone for another five minutes. Last five minutes he asks what we want to do for fun. The only meaningful instruction from the whole lesson would come from the assistant coach, who is filling in and is confused about fundamental things here and there. But at least she is helpful! Some times he teaches with a coach I enjoy and the contrast in both teaching ability and work ethic is night to day.

I work very hard to make lessons possible and the work ethic he exhibits in group lessons is plain unprofessional to me. I originally thought maybe it was the Russian style of teaching, but from my observation he is completely different on private lessons. Almost leads me to question if I am spoiled by above-average group lesson coaches and this is the acceptable norm for group lesson. The coach has been around this rink for decades, I would hate to get on the wrong side of him as he tends to teach the level on which I will stay very long (camel, lutz, axel). But as is lesson time is a waste of my time and resources.

Any recommendations on approaching him or maybe the skating director? My last resolve would be switching rink or getting private lessons, both costly in some aspects. Sorry for ranting, your suggestions are truly appreciated!

[Sk8Dreams]

You are not spoiled; he is a jerk.  I've seen this type of behavior before, even on private lessons, believe it or not.  When the parents aren't there, it's amazing what some coaches will do.  It is not the norm!  I'm not in the right state of mind just now to make any suggestions, but I bet FigureSpins will be along soon with some good advice for you.

[Sk8tmum]

Hmmm ... could you go up to him and interrupt his conversation with the assistant coach and ask for feedback/instruction? Not in an accusatory or confrontational way, just in a "I really love to skate, what do you think of this?" manner. Doesn't sound like his heart is in the group lessons.  If he says no, then, you've got a legitimate complaint; if he swings into action, you've got a solution.

[jjane45]

Sigh, it's hard to believe it. When I was in a different class that shares the ice with this coach, he often leaves the ice during instruction time for 10 minutes or so and simply asks my coach to "keep an eye" on his 6-8 skaters.

I don't know. He appears super nice, always smiling and patting students on the shoulder or back. Maybe it IS the norm to him?

Tried interrupting him and asking questions like "any suggestions on getting my back scratch on the correct edge?" He answered the question quickly but then went back to non-action mode. I continued trying to gain his attention and skated in front of them, but you could only ask so many questions when the coach's attention is clearly not on you. At that particular lesson, there were only 2 students - me and a veteran early-teen, the coach, and the assistant coach. The veteran girl looks in give-up mode already, I don't remember if the coach even said anything on her technique, the assistant coach did work with both of us.

[phoenix]

As others have said, that is entirely unacceptable behavior & I wouldn't be putting up with it for long!!

Is there any possibility of switching? If not, it'd be way more worth your time & $$ to take some private time with a coach who will give you your money's worth.

[Clarice]

If I were a skating director, I would be observing classes on a regular basis and providing feedback to instructors.  I would also have instructor evaluation sheets for skaters/parents to fill out, including items like "provides positive feedback", "makes appropriate corrections", and "attempts to give individual attention to each student."  I would be keeping track of student retention averages for each instructor (how many of them re-enroll). If possible, pay rates would be tied to all this information.

I would also be providing "teacher inservices" for instructors, especially new ones.  Just because someone has been trained as a skater, even a high level one, doesn't mean they know the first thing about teaching.

Just my two cents!   

[jjane45]

LOL colleges do student evaluations routinely but at the end of day it's often not student satisfaction that matters the most.

Has anyone had experiences talking to coaches or skating directors regarding such matters?

There are more rinks within 10 minutes from my current rink (surprisingly high concentration of rinks in the area), and I will look up their schedules to see if any classes fit into my schedule. Would hate to leave this rink but gotta make things work out if communications do not help. Sigh.

[Sierra]

Talking on the cell phone during lesson, whether it be private or group? No, no, and NO. A clear sign that this needs to be fixed.
My coach is the skating director, so she's extremely busy.. and does she ever talk on her phone during my lesson? Nope. Somebody can call her seven times and she won't pick up. She might do a quick text or email while I'm setting up.. but never a call.

Go talk to your skating director. Tow the veteran with you- two people is more impact than one.

[jjane45]

I will approach the coach and explain that
1) My learning style is to comprehend the skill step by step first before converting it to action.
2) I am also less conscious / observant about what my body is really doing as compared to what I perceive, please do not hesitate to keep telling me the same thing over and over again if I am not doing it right.
3) Drills to work on specific flaws will be appreciated anytime.
4) I appreciate he understands that I am a slow learner (true) and might ask more questions than other students.
Hopefully by playing a hardworking, diligent student I may retain more of his attention.

If situation does not improve in a week or so I will certainly approach the skating director. Do you think it would be too aggressive to mention I am considering to switch rinks?

[FigureSpins]

Sounds like a positive approach, good luck.  Hold off on the threats until you see how the skating director responds.  If s/he makes excuses or belittles your position, that can be a good threat. Just be sure that you're willing to go through with it - don't bluff - and that this same coach doesn't teach at the other rink as well.  Many coaches are on staff in multiple rinks.

I'm more amazed that your group lessons are 60 minutes long!  Unless the brochure says there's a half-hour warmup, point out that there might be some confusion on the coach's part since he only gets involved in the class during the second half-hour.

It is possible that the asst. coach is apprenticing, so he's giving direction to her and then backing off to let her teach without interference.  Ask the SD.

[Doubletoe]

Sounds like a positive approach, good luck.  Hold off on the threats until you see how the skating director responds.  If s/he makes excuses or belittles your position, that can be a good threat. Just be sure that you're willing to go through with it - don't bluff - and that this same coach doesn't teach at the other rink as well.  Many coaches are on staff in multiple rinks.

I'm more amazed that your group lessons are 60 minutes long!  Unless the brochure says there's a half-hour warmup, point out that there might be some confusion on the coach's part since he only gets involved in the class during the second half-hour.

It is possible that the asst. coach is apprenticing, so he's giving direction to her and then backing off to let her teach without interference.  Ask the SD.

I am also amazed that your group lessons are 60 minutes long!  The group lessons I've been in were only 30.  How much are they charging you?
Still, it's not acceptable for your instructor to be doing something else when his time is supposed to be spent on everyone in the group.  Even if his assistant is apprenticing, he should be watching all of the interactions to see if the asst. is teaching correctly, not talking on the phone and looking elsewhere.  I agree that you should bring it up to the skating school director, and definitely bring at least one other member of the class with you so they know you aren't the only one with an issue.

[drskater]

So.....any updates? What happened?

[jjane45]

Last week the instructor was on vacation and one of my favorite coach substituted. Made the class 10x more productive with the same assistant coach (both teaching actively and communicating).

Thank you everyone for your inputs, will see what happens this week.

1 hr freestyle is $136 for 10 sessions, 50% off for second lesson on the same level. The rink is municipally run in an oversaturate area where nearly every other town has an indoor rink, with two or three rinks having respectable FS programs, my rink being the largest.

[kiwiskater]

I get 60min group lessons, in all ages we do a group warm up that's ~15min but in adult LTS we get all that time in lesson time.

I'm sincerely glad we don't get that kind of problem at our rink, sure some coaches are less attentive than others but not to the point that they wander off

[jjane45]

(some whining removed)

I heard my rink's class assignment is based on seniority system and newer coaches are very unlikely to get those classes. Do your rinks rotate coaches periodically for higher FS classes? Do coaches generally prefer the exact same schedule the whole year or sometimes slight variety is welcomed?

When multiple classes are sharing ice, I thought it would be nice to rotate coaches within that time slot for new sessions, a skater stuck on certain level may benefit from different perspectives. But maybe consistency in technique is more desired?

[Teresa]

I think the behavior is unprofessional. Personally I would not put up with it.

[kiwiskater]

(some whining removed)

I heard my rink's class assignment is based on seniority system and newer coaches are very unlikely to get those classes. Do your rinks rotate coaches periodically for higher FS classes? Do coaches generally prefer the exact same schedule the whole year or sometimes slight variety is welcomed?

When multiple classes are sharing ice, I thought it would be nice to rotate coaches within that time slot for new sessions, a skater stuck on certain level may benefit from different perspectives. But maybe consistency in technique is more desired?

At the end of the first term I'd skated I asked my coach if she would be back next term, she moaned about not wanting to teach beginners and that she wanted the challenge to teach some of the higher levels next term but that they were allocated a level at the start of each term. In our case in our 2nd term our coach moved up the level & ended up taking us again.

In the adult LTS I attend sometimes we've always ended up with the same coach (she moved up the level with us each time) and she seems to be quite happy to do so... (think in part there is an age difference & maturity thing that makes the both of them so different)

[FigureSpins]

My old rink used to move the coach up with the students from session to session, if enough of the kids signed up for groups again.  Parents could ask for a specific instructor, but the director would never, ever make that promise.  If you asked to avoid an instructor, it made more work for the director, but they tried to work it out.

At my current rink, there's really no rhyme or reason to which instructor gets assigned, mainly because registrations have been so low for groups.  Our most senior coaches can and do ask for specific class assignments, usually if they have a student in the group.

At one point, the director played "eeny-meeny-miney-moe" (I swear!) to hand out the clipboard/class assignment on the ice.  I excused myself from the competition because I had another group on a different day and I was very uncomfortable with the whole situation. 

Some feedback probably come in from parents because there's now an emphasis at our rink on having experienced adult coaches teaching groups rather than the younger high school and college-age instructors.  That's a change in direction that I think is very positive.

[jjane45]

So, ..any updates? What happened?

Was not able to catch the coach neither before nor after class, probably will try to figure out his email address.

Class today was no better. Half of the time he was talking to another coach (who is not even teaching, not sure why he is on the ice) AND facing that coach instead of looking at us. The whole class was supervised practice. Wait, can't even call it supervised while he is not looking, right? What's the point of making 10 of us demonstrating elements one by one if your eyes are not on the student?

I did try to get some feedback / instruction when he wanted students to demonstrate lutz. Told him that being new I cannot do it yet. He looked at me and just said do it anyways. No word at all after my messy attempt.

What did he say today that was constructive? That back scratch happens on back outside edge right on the ball. THAT IS IT. It's fine that he does not demonstrate (one of my fav. coach does not even do crossovers due to old age), but not critiquing anyone all lesson long, except to make a girl redo a spin? Oh and not knowing who is lefty in a group that spent multiple sessions with him, that speaks volumes.  (even a newbie like me knew by now!)

I am sorry for the rants. And APOLOGIES if this sounds discriminatory and racist. It just happens at my rink there is a clique of 3-4 Russian coaches who really have endless things to share among themselves during lesson time. Does it have anything to do with the Russian school of teaching? (Spoiled American students want attention all the time!!)

[phoenix]

I am sorry for the rants. And APOLOGIES if this sounds discriminatory and racist. It just happens at my rink there is a clique of 3-4 Russian coaches who really have endless things to share among themselves during lesson time. Does it have anything to do with the Russian school of teaching? (Spoiled American students want attention all the time!!)

I don't think so. My coach is Russian (in your city, btw), and he would never do something like that. I'd totally switch rinks for group classes after this session, and I'd tell the skating director why you're leaving.

[sk8Joyful]

If I were a skating director, I would be observing classes on a regular basis and providing feedback to instructors.  I would also have instructor evaluation sheets for skaters/parents to fill out, including items like "provides positive feedback", "makes appropriate corrections", and "attempts to give individual attention to each student." 
I would be keeping track of student retention averages for each instructor (how many of them re-enroll). If possible, pay rates would be tied to all this information.

I would also be providing "teacher inservices" for instructors, especially new ones.  Just because someone has been trained as a skater, even a high level one, doesn't mean they know the first thing about teaching.

Following this discussion silently, and from personal experience, could not agree more re:  'Just because someone has been trained as a skater, even a high level one, doesn't mean they know the first thing about teaching'.

How many coaches have verbalized  that attitude: "So long as I get paid, I don't care if you learn anything, or not".   

[Isk8NYC]

I'd totally switch rinks for group classes after this session, and I'd tell the skating director why you're leaving.

I agree with Phoenix.

[jjane45]

Caught the coach during warm up and expressed my concerns being a newbie in a difficult level, that I am a slow learner and really appreciate feedback, if I keep making the same mistakes please keep reminding me etc. Coach laughed pleasantly and said don't worry.

So today's lesson was more productive than yesterday, there was some instruction from him!! We went through footwork while keeping his attention. Then back scratch spin. There were only 2 students, assistant coach was helping the other girl and I had him. Now his eyes were following the FS6 students setting up jumps. Then he wandered off to the other class and spent 5 minutes there. Finally I had enough of spinning and asked the assistant coach what should I do. Coach came back and asked us to do camels, then engaged the assistant coach to passionate conversation again, meaning turning away and not looking at the ice at all. Arrg. Seriously people, I don't know how to tell him that he is talking too much.

To make the rant complete, ISI FS5 footwork step 8 is RFI bracket, he keeps telling me I did a 3 turn and I said it's a bracket, pointing at the tracing. It went like bracket! 3 turn! bracket! 3 turn! for a while until assistant coach said my edge was wrong and I felt like knocking my head on the boards. I knew my bracket has edge issues but does it make it a 3 turn? Also he said my step 12 step forward was not inside edge, to which I went extremely puzzled because my step was very curvy. I asked and asked for explanation to no avail.  (ETA: I think I figured it out! step 12 is RFI and 16 RFO, he did the opposite. Need to bring diagram to next class.)  Assistant coach said in the first class that she does not know the FS5 footwork, guess she either felt already disagreeing too much today or she still did not know it. Poor fellow student (also new to class) had to follow me on this obviously flawed pattern over and over and "watch". When coach demonstrated the LFI open choctaw at the end of footwork, the RBO half was a deep, curvy RBI. I said: It's inside edge! Assistant coach was standing right by me and said: You know it. . .

Seriously, I would be happy with just the assistant coach on the ice with 2 students, at least she won't have to spend time talking to him, and I could teach myself the footwork steps and ask for help on bracket / choctaw edges.

Rant over. Time to write to the skating director.

[drskater]

So sorry you are going through this. You know, sometimes you encounter coaches who really do not know what they're talking about and some coaches who feel humiliated by teaching adults. As you know, a good private coach -- who you can actually work with you -- may be your best option now.

[jjane45]

Thank you drskater, he is ignoring everyone alike, kid or adult. Just could not believe he has a "FS5 tenure" for years based on seniority, maybe it's the rink's tactic to drive students into privates, or other rinks.

Alright I am letting my bad side out of control. No more rants and I will post again when there is a resolution. Thank you everyone for your help.