Sharpening woes in Europe

[AlbaNY]

I was complaining to Coach Awesome about not having a sharpening since June, because I kind of felt it on one inside edge too much yesterday.  He said the inside edges always go first.  He also told me to just deal with it, and that his blades had not been sharpened since he bought the boots&blades.
That was almost two years ago!   

Some of you may remember that in Romania I had my sharpenings done buy a guy with a vertical grinder in his garage, (and actually earlier this week a girl with some nice Paramount blades said she goes to him.)  Well, it turns out Coach Awesome is waiting to be at a competition with a good skate tech on site to get his done.

I asked if I could do mine myself on the rental skate machine at the rink, because the manager is a friend and would probably let me.  At this point I'll trust my own skill over no sharpening, but he said they also just have a vertical grinder not specifically meant for skates.   

11 days until my mother brings a couple Profilers.   

My coach in Germany just uses a Sparx machine with something to protect the picks.  Others send their skates away, but I am worried since some even use flat bottom v, and I have no idea how decent the tech is or isn't.  Not to mention missing my skates for a while. 
I used to think it was annoying to drive an hour and a half to a tech, but that would be amazing now. 

Anyway, I wanted to vent about this.

[tstop4me]

What blades do you have? Some of the options you mentioned (Profiler, Sparx) won't work for all blades.

[Query]

If your ROH is 1/2", you might get by with an old Berghman skate sharpener, in spite of the coarse and crumbly cylindrical stones. Last I checked they were $5-10 on eBay, but that was years ago. If your mom's Profilers have 1/2" stones, they could replace Berghman's.

Also, if it can't slide past flat parts of your blade that would be a problem. Possibly you could make do by taping or gluing strips of compressible foam to the adjustable jaws, but I haven't tried that. Pro-Filer might have similar problems. And I hope your mom brings Figure skate Profilers, not hockey, which uses thinner blades.

"A vertical grinder specifically meant for skates"??

You mean a bench grinder, that doesn't create a hollow at all? I doubt that would please you.

I'm sure you've seen enough horror stories of bad sharpenings on this discussion board to know that going with someone who isn't good at specifically sharpening figure skates can totally ruin figure skate blades.

Many "rental skate sharpening machines" would do a terrible job on figure skates. E.g., they may completely redo your rocker profile.

I have sometimes deliberately gone for a while with dull blades, in order to practice getting my blade alignment right. 11 days? Maybe you can tough it out that long?

[supersharp]

I was complaining to Coach Awesome about not having a sharpening since June, because I kind of felt it on one inside edge too much yesterday.  He said the inside edges always go first.  He also told me to just deal with it, and that his blades had not been sharpened since he bought the boots&blades.
That was almost two years ago!   

Some of you may remember that in Romania I had my sharpenings done buy a guy with a vertical grinder in his garage, (and actually earlier this week a girl with some nice Paramount blades said she goes to him.)  Well, it turns out Coach Awesome is waiting to be at a competition with a good skate tech on site to get his done.

I asked if I could do mine myself on the rental skate machine at the rink, because the manager is a friend and would probably let me.  At this point I'll trust my own skill over no sharpening, but he said they also just have a vertical grinder not specifically meant for skates.   

11 days until my mother brings a couple Profilers.   

My coach in Germany just uses a Sparx machine with something to protect the picks.  Others send their skates away, but I am worried since some even use flat bottom v, and I have no idea how decent the tech is or isn't.  Not to mention missing my skates for a while. 
I used to think it was annoying to drive an hour and a half to a tech, but that would be amazing now. 

Anyway, I wanted to vent about this.

This is so grim, it's like a special skater's horror story unfolding!  Sounds like you need a pair of backup skates (I'm finally in the position of having a reasonably good pair of backup skates, yay) and then you can send your skates someplace you trust. If I were in Europe without my machine, I'd send mine to Kaitsu. 

I just realized I might be able to direct you to someone in Germany who has the older version of the Incredible Edger.  I donated a rod for Paramount/Matrix blades to them (via a coach that works in both the US and Germany) when I upgraded my machine, since I don't need it anymore (the new version accommodates P/M without changing rods).  I'll see if I can track down some details, and I think it is show skaters sharpening their own skates, so I'm not sure how skilled they are.  The coach is a skilled sharpener, though, so there is some hope, but I know the coach is working in Mexico this winter.  I will keep you posted.

[AlbaNY]

What blades do you have? Some of the options you mentioned (Profiler, Sparx) won't work for all blades.

I have Pattern 99s. 
Thankfully I'll have my old boots and blades as a backup once the new pair are done.  That was supposed to be by December, but... wasn't.  I can't go to NY to heat mould them or anything until March though, so it's okay as long as Harlick has them ready by then.  Otherwise I'm really screwed.

I'm looking forward to the Profiler(s)!

[AlbaNY]

Query, I like 7/16, so I'm going to use a 3/8 Profiler for me and 1/2 for my daughter. 

Yes, a bench grinder.  I think I shared a photo somewhere here a couple years ago of how the tech in Romania did it.  He did dress the stone to my ROH, but the skates were hand held for the passes.  Yikes.

If the mall rink had a normal horizontal machine with the holder I'd be okay to do it myself, but I guess they just have a bench grinder too.   

Yes, It's only a few days now.  I will manage.  Thankfully on choppy ice I don't notice the dullness so much.  It's only bad at the club lesson with smooth hard ice.

[AlbaNY]

This is so grim, it's like a special skater's horror story unfolding!  Sounds like you need a pair of backup skates (I'm finally in the position of having a reasonably good pair of backup skates, yay) and then you can send your skates someplace you trust. If I were in Europe without my machine, I'd send mine to Kaitsu. 

I just realized I might be able to direct you to someone in Germany who has the older version of the Incredible Edger.  I donated a rod for Paramount/Matrix blades to them (via a coach that works in both the US and Germany) when I upgraded my machine, since I don't need it anymore (the new version accommodates P/M without changing rods).  I'll see if I can track down some details, and I think it is show skaters sharpening their own skates, so I'm not sure how skilled they are.  The coach is a skilled sharpener, though, so there is some hope, but I know the coach is working in Mexico this winter.  I will keep you posted.

Thank you Supersharp.

[tstop4me]

I have Pattern 99s. 
Thankfully I'll have my old boots and blades as a backup once the new pair are done.  That was supposed to be by December, but... wasn't.  I can't go to NY to heat mould them or anything until March though, so it's okay as long as Harlick has them ready by then.  Otherwise I'm really screwed.

I'm looking forward to the Profiler(s)!

That's fortunate for the blades.  Pro-Filers work best for figure skates (1) fabricated from plain-carbon steel, (2) with traditional brazed construction (not chassis+runner), and (3) with parallel sides.  P99 meets all three criteria. 

How well the Pro-Filers will then work will depend mainly on the thickness and thickness variation of the blades from pick to heel and the surface finish of the sides of the blade.  You will want to have on hand a micrometer that will let you measure the blade thickness to within 0.001".   The blade thickness will determine the suitable tape to use.  Should you need help at that point, let me know.  We've had previous threads on tape problems.

[Query]

BTW, I've used pro-filers for years on stainless steel old style Matrix blades for many years (440 or 440C alloy). They work great. Also on high carbon JW Coronation Ace and MK Dance.

Trace the rocker profile first, so you can maintain it. And, just in case there is a slight asymmetry, take a few strokes, flip the blades (or Profiler) around, take a few more, and repeat.

If you don't use tape, oil or water the sides of the blades to avoid scratches. If the gap is too narrow for your blades, file it wider as symmetrically as possible - but some old Pro-Filers had an adjustable set screw.

Lubricate your stones with water. Oil works too, but is messy in your bag. Use the coarse stone (diamond dust abrasive) as much as you can - it wears out a lot slower than the fine stone.

Since the old used Berghman sharpening tools (that search was on U.S. eBay - I don't know how to search for used gear in your country) are so cheap, I would use one instead of the Pro-Filer handle to hold the Pro-Filer's abrasive cylindrical stone, on the 1/2" pair. Better control, and you can get closer to the toe pick. Plus, you won't need tape or filing, because the gap width is adjustable - though you should oil those adjustable jaws to avoid scratching. But they only hold 1/2" stones. I once tried to wrap a lot of tape around a 3/8" stone, but that was just a mess, and it moved around too much. I really, really wish someone would start making them again, in other ROH's - the patents have expired.

I personally think you made a great decision to use parallel sided blades. Some people claim other blade shapes have advantages, but parallel sided blades are so obviously easier to deal with.

Supersharp's suggestion that you get a second pair of boots sounds good - but if you don't trust any skate techs there, I don't see how you could find one who could fit boots to you well. And maybe the skate tech she knows will solve the whole problem. Can you adapt rental skates? By making your own insole?

[Query]

Oh - remember to rotate your cylindrical stones after every sharpening. Otherwise they won't stay cylindrical, and you won't get a normal shape hollow.

Though if you do things right, they will last you for years.

[AlbaNY]

That's fortunate for the blades.  Pro-Filers work best for figure skates (1) fabricated from plain-carbon steel, (2) with traditional brazed construction (not chassis+runner), and (3) with parallel sides.  P99 meets all three criteria. 

How well the Pro-Filers will then work will depend mainly on the thickness and thickness variation of the blades from pick to heel and the surface finish of the sides of the blade.  You will want to have on hand a micrometer that will let you measure the blade thickness to within 0.001".   The blade thickness will determine the suitable tape to use.  Should you need help at that point, let me know.  We've had previous threads on tape problems.

I should mention Daughter has Coronation Ace, so that ought to work well too.  The taping part and needing to measure is making me a bit worried though. 

[AlbaNY]

Thank you for the information, Query.

I have been in the habit of tracing my blades already. 
Yes, I like the simplicity of old school blade styles (although parabolic Coronation Aces felt really nice when I tried them.)

Soon I'll have my new boots, but I'll need to get them from NY, heat moulded, and the blades mounted over there on a visit.  My current pair will be a good backup, and the blades are only a bit more than a year old. 
Hopefully my problems are solved.  I sure miss my skate techs from NY though!

[tstop4me]

I should mention Daughter has Coronation Ace, so that ought to work well too.  The taping part and needing to measure is making me a bit worried though.

* Coronation Ace also satisfies the same three criteria I discussed above.  I've personally used a Pro-Filer on Coronation Ace (as well as two other blades).

* The tape serves two purposes:  (a) it keeps the chassis of the Pro-Filer from scratching the chrome sides of the blade, and (b) it controls the clearance gap between the blade and chassis of the Pro-Filer.  [Note that the masking tape supplied with the Pro-Filer kit doesn't work very well.]  Snagging the tape has been a major source of frustration for some users, and previous threads have addressed how to mitigate this problem.  I'll look them up should you run into problems.

* The micrometer is not essential, but it makes it a lot easier to determine a suitable tape thickness.  And it comes in real handy for troubleshooting (e.g., if the chassis snags at certain spots, a micrometer can determine whether the blade thickness is larger at those spots; if not, something else is amiss). 

[Query]

I think you are a very bright young lady. You've prior skate sharpening experience, and have done many mechanical things around your rink. E.g., if you do any Zamboni maintenance, that is probably much more complicated. I bet you find sharpening with Pro-Filer a lot easier than sharpening with a powered sharpening machine, and that you figure it out very quickly. And after the first time, if you keep the blade reasonably sharp, it will probably only take you a few minutes.

E.g., you may find you need to remove or vertically repoint the sharpening burr (which, if it exists, initially points off to the side) - especially if you use the fine stone (which you really only need if you like very sharp blades, like me), using a flat stone, which might even be included in the Pro-Filer kit. But you've likely already done that after sharpening with a powered sharpening machine.

Again, any sharpening procedure tends to round off what I call the sweet spot(s) - the transition from the main rocker to the spin rocker, (which, if I remember right, on Pattern 99's, occurs in two steps, near the front of the blade). You typically use sweet spot(s) to turn and spin on - basically they are a reference position you can sort of feel when you are at them.

So you may need to re-emphasize it. What I occasionally do is to create a slight convex direction change at the desired sweet spot, by pushing a little harder on the forward part of the blade. I guess you would do it in two steps if you want to keep both sweet spots on the Pattern 99.

So don't be afraid. Tell us how it goes.

Some rinks and pro shops in rinks might not want you to sharpen your own blades in the rink facility where other people can see you. Pro shops probably make most of their money from sharpening, and don't want other skaters to realize they might be able to do it themselves.

[AlbaNY]

Thank you again Tstop4me and Query.

I have to admit I didn't research this much, so I thought the tape was only to keep the chrome from being scratched. 

You are kind, Query. 
I have my flat Arkansas stone with me, and it has been what saved me, I expect.  I really enjoy sharp blades contrary to what I actually use. 
Your instructions are very interesting regarding the rocker, and I'll keep it in mind.

I'm pretty sure the rink in Bucharest wouldn't be a problem.  The machine isn't visible, they don't offer sharpenings for a fee, and anyway it's super, SUPER chill overall.  Unfortunately it's not a regular sharpening machine that I'd be comfortable using.

[Query]

AlbaNY, how do you use your Arkansas stone without something else to create a hollow?


BTW, I wonder how someone would dress a conventional bench grinder to create a hollow. Would one find a way to mount the dresser designed for use with a skate sharpening machine? Would you have to remove something to make room for that?

Any ideas, guys, for how you would do it?

Also, how would you keep the blade centered on the wheel of a standard bench grinder? I wouldn't be surprised if doing a good job on such a machine requires overwhelmingly better hand-eye coordination and much more practice than on a purpose-built skate sharpener.

I found a few web pages where people spoke of using the corner of the wheel, and free-handing the hollow. Is anyone really that good at freehanding? I've talked to people who freehanded the hollow using hand grinding tools, but that was mostly for emergency use, to rapidly fix a blade that developed a nick. It would be incredibly hard to freehand a consistent hollow on the whole blade. I suppose an incredibly accomplished craftsman might do it just to prove they could...

Unless - could someone use the bench grinder as a cross grinder? I.e., the ROH would be the radius of the entire wheel? Are there any bench grinders with wheel radii that are anywhere even close to 7/16"? I thought they were all around 4-6" in diameter...

[Kaitsu]

Vertical skate machines could be example...
Prosharp
Cag One
DupliSkate
The Sparks

[Bill_S]

I found Alba's post with photo of the bench grinder being used to sharpen her skates. It was a post from February 24, 2022 in this thread - http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=8702.0

For those of you in disbelief, here is her photo from then...

[AlbaNY]

Query, I just use the stone to tidy up the outside edges a little.  I'm skating on butter knives at this point. 

At the time I wasn't paying attention as much as I would now.  He asked my hollow and did something with a stone to dress the wheel.  Coach Awesome says the guy was sharpening this way since before the break up of the Soviet Union, and honestly I felt like he did a really good job.  I had no complaints at all. 

Romania doesn't have any more high level skaters now (not counting the German woman who represents them or the dance pair who represents Finland,) but they did for a while and they were either skating on this guy's sharpenings or on dull blades.  At least one made the Olympics. 

Sometimes you have to make do with what you have.

Thanks for digging up the photo Bill.  No way I'm risking the Pattern 99s despite now nice his sharpenings actually felt.  Especially if Coach Awesome isn't risking it with Coronation Aces. 

[AlbaNY]

I have a new EU sharpening story.

Today a girl at the rink had Gold Seals, so I asked where she has her sharpenings done thinking this would be a great way to find a good tech.  She said "here at the rink" though.

The rink only has a Sparx machine.   
Just like the one a couple hours+ north.  Everyone is using the darned thing here. 

Her blades looked like on the last third of their life, but they were new to her, and she hadn't had them done yet.

I feel like it would be nice to have a fresh sharpening done tomorrow before competing next week if I were able (with my tech rather than the ProFiler) in an ideal world, but I think I prefer keeping what's left of the last sharpening over what I might do with the handheld device?  I haven't been doing that many hours yet, I don't think, but a fresh sharpening is always so nice.  I should tally my hours and decide.

[Query]

The Pro-filer isn't so hard to use!

Record the profile, taking special note of the sweet spot, if you haven't already. Feel for edge sharpness and alignmnet by drawing your finger lightly across the blade edges. If the edge tip has been pushed to the inside or outside, just push it vertical with your flat stone, and you are probably done.

Otherwise continue:

If you have both coarse and fine grain stones, use the coarse stone, because it is faster and easier. The blades should fit in the Pro-filer snugly - even stick a little. If not, add equal layers of tape (I use thin, slippery scotch transparent tape) to each side, to make sharpening consistent. Cut tape away in the center notch, so you can turn the stone after every sharpening.

Take a slow stroke with the profiler - I prefer to hold it with the blade up. See if the grind isn't centered, add layer(s) of tape, resting on at the base of the stone, inside the gap, so it sticks to the gap.

Take a few more slow strokes, from the toe pick to the back. Reverse the Pro-Filer orientation, and take a few more stow strokes, from back to pick, but don't ride over the toe pick, unless you want to trim it.

Turn the stone a little.

Test for sharpness and edge alignment again. That's it, if it is already somewhat sharp. A few minutes at most. If not sharp yet, repeat until done.

No steel filings or abrasive dust will come off, or stick to the stone or blade, unlike Kaitsu's 3D printed sharpener using sandpaper - because you mostly reshape rather than grind away steel.

With the fine grain stone, you also need to push the (foil) edge vertical, perhaps with the flat stone. But as I suggested, skip that stone for now - most skaters don't like ultra-sharp edges anyway.

[AlbaNY]

Query, I used the Profiler on the blades of my old pair and was happy.  I just need to tally up my skating hours and see if it isn't a bit early to bother.  I did have a difficult time finding tape that worked well.  The crappy stuff I had on hand made it jam up annoyingly. 

[tstop4me]

Query, I used the Profiler on the blades of my old pair and was happy.  I just need to tally up my skating hours and see if it isn't a bit early to bother.  I did have a difficult time finding tape that worked well.  The crappy stuff I had on hand made it jam up annoyingly.

Ah, yes, the pesky tape problem.  See my recommendation here:  https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6837.0  Reply#18.

[AlbaNY]

Ah, yes, the pesky tape problem.  See my recommendation here:  https://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6837.0  Reply#18.

Thanks Tstop.  I decided to do a sharpening today and forget the tape.  I'm not sensitive and decided to just deal with the scratching, because it's hard to find decent tape where I am. 

The edges feel so much sharper after!  I usually go a really long time between traditional sharpenings, but I guess it makes sense to use the Profiler more often.  In any case it's always nice before a competition.  Let's see if the the weird, sticky, hard ice feels any better today?

[Query]

Can anyone explain what makes ice "sticky"?

Is it simply temperature, or could impurities in the water make a difference?

Best of luck at your competitions!