I do most of the work on my boots in the shop. There are times when I wish that I had three hands to hold the boot and perform a task. I'm getting ready to mount blades onto my new boots, and want to make sure that the holes are drilled square to the sole. To hold the boots steady and level, I needed to have something hold them in place.

A couple of days ago I water-proofed the bottoms of the new Silver Star boots. They were flopping all over the place as I held the heat gun in position while rubbing-in the Sno-Seal with the other hand. Knowing that I had an even more exacting task to do, I decided to make a boot holder. It's made of two pieces of 3/4" wood and will clamp in a vice to hold a boot.

I began by drawing a shape that is considerably smaller than a real foot, and had roughly the same contours. I took that piece of wood to the band saw to rough out the shape.



I took it to a sander to smooth the sharp edges and remove roughness. Next I cut a length of the same wood that will fasten to the surrogate "foot". That piece will be the part clamped in a vice. I knew that I could rotate the widget fore and aft in the vice, but I have no means of side-to-side movement. I don't expect that to be a problem though.

To fasten the clamping "stick" to the foot shape, I used two pocket-hole screws. I positioned one on each side. Pocket screws are simple to create. Unlike glue, they are reversible if something didn't work.

Drilling the pocket holes for the screws...





Then it was a simple matter to clamp them together, then fasten the stick to the foot shape with screws...



The result...



...and fitted into the boot.



Now it's simple to securely hold the boot with the widget inserted using a common vice. I can adjust for a level sole when drilling holes for mounting blade. Future maintenance tasks will be much easier too.

Here's the best part. I can take the entire vice with boot assembly and set it onto the drill press table for extremely accurate drilling. This will be better than 99.9% of the pro shops out there.





No hand-held drills for me, thank you!

Quote from: Bill_S on January 05, 2020, 04:46:00 PM

What is the circle looking thing - Bulls eye/circular bubble level? For making sure drilling straight (not diagonally)? Presumably drill press is "level" so only need one on the boot?

Also, what is silver looking material peeking through the holes of the boot? Kinda looks like metal plate in boot heel...

The circular object is indeed a bubble level...



A drill press table is level, but when you clamp the holder into a vice, you may swing it and reclamp as needed. Here's a shot showing how it can be swung fore-aft in a vice. Note that I grabbed my little drill press vice for this shot instead of the heavier one that I actually use. I didn't feel like lifting 20 lbs. this morning just for a quick photo. 



In any boot holder made for a drill press, you must allow for this swing to happen. The boot sole and heel are not "coplanar", and the holder must be swung to allow for drilling holes perpendicular to both surfaces. See the lines draw on the bottom of the boot shown below...



Swinging the vice and watching the bubble level gets each surface perpendicular to the drill bit.

Note that none of these holders will hold a boot perfectly immobile. The boot is still free to "mush" around a bit because the holder is sitting on a cushioned surface, the foot form doesn't fill the boot like a real foot does, and the boot isn't laced onto it. It's merely a support, and you'll still need to use your free hand to stabilize it, particularly side to side, as you drill. It still beats trying to hold a boot in one hand and a drill in the other.

Definitely better than 99.9% of the pro shops. It's discouraging see how little attention to detail there is on most mountings. 

I adjust or remount at least 75% of the pre-mounted boots that I see. I hate to be filling and re-drilling boots that haven't even been used yet, but it's not fair to the skater to expect them to compensate for a bad mounting.  Skating is difficult enough to learn with perfect equipment...even the lowest levels of skaters need good mountings and level edges. 

I forgot one of the questions asked by SkaterNomad. The row of metal things seen on the sole of the Riedell boot are nails they use to hold the heel layers together. They've done that forever.

When trying to line up blade mounting holes, inevitably one of the desired holes is perfectly centered over a nail. If you try drilling on top of one of the nails, your drill bit will wander, making the hole useless.

I once had someone ask a Riedell rep at a trade show about changing the nails to something else, or at least reducing the number of them, but they essentially said "tough luck".

You would think that Riedell doesn't realize we are mounting blades to these heels.  It almost seems like they put them in the way of the screws on purpose...

Simple, elegant design. I like it.

Mike C once told me that MK and JW frequently didn't center the countersink on the screw hole in the blade chassis, which maybe means they don't use drill bits with integral countersinks.

Do you use a countersink punch to figure out where to center the drill bit for the pilot hole? I've sometimes done that, but maybe its only needed for inexperienced tool users like me?

Funny that you should mention a countersink punch. Mine got lost recently, and I just got a new one. Yes, I do use them, but not exclusively.

For those who don't know, here's a countersink punch (called automatic center punch by this manufacturer)...



The retracting, tapered-end sleeve centers on the countersink. When you press down, the sleeve retracts as the sharp point marks the center for drilling.



Using it well requires two conditions - the countersink doesn't move during marking, and the countersink is machined concentric with the through-hole. I've fixed blades into position by taping around the mounting plate edges with painter's tape before marking. It seems to be sufficient, but time consuming.

Mike's experience with off-center countersinks is probably true, but I haven't experienced it myself. (BTW, I see that Mike is the technical guy for this year's US Olympic figure skating team!)

But sometimes I just revert to a tool that I know very well, a simple awl for marking centers. Careful sighting for center is often sufficient when the mounting holes are positioned in contact with the boot sole. Sometimes the simplest tools, used carefully, will suffice.

I forgot to mention one other tool for getting nicely centered holes. I have these centering drills that operate like an automatic center punch on countersunk holes. They have a spring-loaded, retracting sleeve that centers on the countersink, then retracts while the drill inside extends. I have this set of various sized centering drills...



When pressure is applied during drilling, the drill bit advances while the sleeve retracts. It's the same action as the automatic center punch picture in the post above.



Sorry for the slightly blurry picture, but it was difficult holding the camera with one hand while pressing against the substantial spring force of the sleeve.

As you can see, there are numerous ways to make holes to mount the blade with accuracy. But none of them is completely foolproof.

Quote from: Bill_S on February 01, 2022, 09:18:34 AM
....
For those who don't know, here's a countersink punch (called automatic center punch by this manufacturer)...

....

The retracting, tapered-end sleeve centers on the countersink. When you press down, the sleeve retracts as the sharp point marks the center for drilling.

....

Using it well requires two conditions - the countersink doesn't move during marking, and the countersink is machined concentric with the through-hole. I've fixed blades into position by taping around the mounting plate edges with painter's tape before marking. It seems to be sufficient, but time consuming.

....

<<Emphasis added>> Bill, that's an interesting tool.  I have several automatic center punches, but they don't have the retracting sleeve.  In addition to the two conditions you've noted, I would think there's a third:  the punch needs to be aligned orthogonal to the plane of the through-hole; if the punch is tilted, the punch mark will be off-center.  The retracting sleeve automatically maintains concentricity with the countersink, but orthogonal alignment is strictly by eye and hand.  Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. It only corrects for two axis in the plane of the blade mount. A carelessly tilted tool can produce an offset.

>BTW, I see that Mike is the technical guy for this year's US Olympic figure skating team!)

I can't find a link mentioning that. You mean Mike Cunningham, formerly of Skater's Paradise, right?

>Using it well requires two conditions - the countersink doesn't move during marking, and the countersink is machined concentric with the through-hole.

What I was trying to do was to center the mark - and therefore help me place the pilot holes so that the mounting screw could lock the plate solidly in one place on the outsole.

I haven't had to center the hole precisely on the hole in the mounting plate, because the screw is of somewhat smaller diameter than the hole.

To be clear, the countersink punch I use is spring loaded. You place the countersink of the punch into the countersunk hole at the top of the mounting plate - which, BTW, tstop4me, should ideally guarantee that it won't be tilted, with respect to the top of the mounting plate. Then I release the spring mechanism, and the punch makes a visible mark on the outsole.

I then use a "drill guide" when drilling a pilot hole. That way the pilot hole is at right angles to the local part of the outsole. Then, I insert the screw into the pilot hole, which forces the screw to be at right angles to the outsole too - and the countersink will indeed lock perfectly into the countersink region on the mounting plate.

I made mistakes in many respects, before I humbly asked people who sell tools for suggestions. The countersink punch and the drill guide are what they suggested I use.

I didn't know about center drills. If you use them to drill the pilot hole, I guess they are a little better than center punches, because
(1) you don't have to visually center the drill on the counter sink.
(2) You don't need a drill guide.

Right?

Except that with a drill press, it seems like it would be harder to move things around to get that perfect alignment than with a hand-held drill - because you have to shift the vice, and loosen the drill holder. I don't see the benefit of using a drill press rather than a hand-held drill. In fact, I think I might prefer, if it would fit, to use a smaller hand-held tool, like a Dremel tool or equivalent.

I assume the boot holder makes it easier and safer to work with a drill on the boot.

Perhaps it also makes it a little easier to do waterproofing?

And if you didn't already have a drying rack, it might do - though you might rust the vice.

What else would you use a boot holder for?

Quote from: Query on February 04, 2022, 05:19:33 PM

>Using it well requires two conditions - the countersink doesn't move during marking, and the countersink is machined concentric with the through-hole.

What I was trying to do was to center the mark - and therefore help me place the pilot holes so that the mounting screw could lock the plate solidly in one place on the outsole.

I haven't had to center the hole precisely on the hole in the mounting plate, because the screw is of somewhat smaller diameter than the hole.

To be clear, the countersink punch I use is spring loaded. You place the countersink of the punch into the countersunk hole at the top of the mounting plate - which, BTW, tstop4me, should ideally guarantee that it won't be tilted, with respect to the top of the mounting plate. Then I release the spring mechanism, and the punch makes a visible mark on the outsole.

<<Emphasis added.>>  So is your countersink different from the one shown by Bill?  If so, how does it guarantee that it's not tilted?

Quote from: tstop4me on February 04, 2022, 05:52:41 PM
<<Emphasis added.>>  So is your countersink different from the one shown by Bill?  If so, how does it guarantee that it's not tilted?

The countersink punch lies directly on the countersink of the blade mounting plate. So if they tilt, they tilt and center exactly the same.

What matters, if you want to lock down the position of the blade on the boot, is that they mesh perfectly. It doesn't matter if the countersink is tilted, as long as the screw and countersink tilt the same, and are centered the same.

I suppose if you had a huge tilt, like 45 degrees it would be mechanically inefficient. But that isn't likely (I hope).

Do people ever drill pilot holes for nails? I guess if you wanted to be extreme, you could do the same with them.

Quote from: Query on February 04, 2022, 06:41:52 PM
The countersink punch lies directly on the countersink of the blade mounting plate. So if they tilt, they tilt and center exactly the same.

What matters, if you want to lock down the position of the blade on the boot, is that they mesh perfectly. It doesn't matter if the countersink is tilted, as long as the screw and countersink tilt the same, and are centered the same.

I suppose if you had a huge tilt, like 45 degrees it would be mechanically inefficient. But that isn't likely (I hope).

Do people ever drill pilot holes for nails? I guess if you wanted to be extreme, you could do the same with them.

If your countersink punch is similar to the one shown by Bill, the punch can be tilted with respect to the mounting plate.  I.E., you have a retractable sleeve with a conical body fitting into a conical countersink hole.  That doesn't guarantee that the axes are aligned; if they are not aligned, the punch mark will be off center.  In order to guarantee alignment, you would need an additional guide (same principle as your drill guide).

The countersink area of the tool fits exactly into the countersunk bevel in the hole - and they rest against each other. Thus, there is no tilt of the tool wrt the bevel, and it is exactly on-center.

Some sort of spring mechanism inside the tool shots a sharp nail-like object at the surface below, making a mark. It's really very simple.

I assume some of the center-drills work much the same way? I.E., you rest the countersink region of the tool against the countersink area of the hole, and a spring pushes the drill bit into the object below the hole?

But the right way to make a mounting plate, such as is used in skating blaes, it seems to me, is to use a countersink drill bit - where the drilling component is manufactured exactly centered on the countersink. Then, when the hole is drilled, the countersunk bevel would be drilled at the same time. What is more, you could do it with semi-automated drill presses, instead of hand-held tools. I would think that a big manufacturing plant like MK/JW could afford a few such drill bits, because it would eliminate the relative centering problem between the hole and the countersunk bevel.

Though a countersink punch or a hand-held drill would still be a good way to mount the blade on the boot.

When I watched Mice Cunningham mount skates on boots, he didn't need a countersink punch. He just looked carefully what he was doing, and used a hand-held drill. But he had over 50 years of practice using tools, and probably had better coordination than me. Perhaps you have the skill and coordination to do that too, if you have been building things since childhood. But if I don't use tools to help, I can put a screw off-center, and at a slant, that messes up with holding the blade in place. I learn best by making mistakes. Maybe my procedure is overkill for most people - but there are a lot of people like me who didn't grow up around tools, and we do sometimes make mistakes.

Quote from: Query on February 04, 2022, 08:17:38 PM

When I watched Mice Cunningham mount skates on boots, he didn't need a countersink punch. He just looked carefully what he was doing, and used a hand-held drill. But he had over 50 years of practice using tools, and probably had better coordination than me. Perhaps you have the skill and coordination to do that too, if you have been building things since childhood. But if I don't use tools to help, I can put a screw off-center, and at a slant, that messes up with holding the blade in place. I learn best by making mistakes. Maybe my procedure is overkill for most people - but there are a lot of people like me who didn't grow up around tools, and we do sometimes make mistakes.

NOTE: Before marking anything, I always first look at the plates and make sure that they are roughly perpendicular to the blade at the stanchions--there is a lot of curvature on many of the plates that makes this analysis difficult, and I wish blade manufacturers would just make the dang things flat.  I also look for any other defects that would make me reject new blades.  Everything written below here is about the process after the blades have been judged acceptable.

MARKING THE HOLES
Even for people who use tools regularly, it takes a clear, calm focus to drill for mounting skates.  Even the tiniest deviation in the centering of the hole will make the screw off-center.  I don't have much problem getting the hole marked and punched at the center of the sole plate hole--I mark it, then look at it again, then place the center punch at the center of the mark and create a dent at that location (I use one of the spring-loaded punches).  Then I look again.  The dent is bigger than the mark, so it is now easier to see if I am off in any direction.  If I am, I re-punch with the punch at an angle so that it makes the dent a little wider, moving it toward the correct location.  When I'm satisfied that it is now centered, I re-punch the center again with the punch held perpendicular to the sole. 

DRILLING
For a new mounting, I follow this process for all four slotted openings, remove the blade, and drill the four holes using a small jig that holds the drill blade perpendicular to the sole.  This usually results in good lineup, but you have to really pay attention to how the drill bit is inserted into the dent.  The center of the bit must go into the dent.  This is where a drill press and boot stand would be nice, because everything would be held completely stable with no chance to have the bit grab and pull a little bit sideways as it bites into the sole. 

TEMP MOUNTING COMMENTS
At this point, the blade is ready for temporary mounting.  I shim as needed so that the sole plates lie in their relaxed position when they are screwed flush with the shimmed sole. (Note that this shimming is to avoid adding twist or tension to the blades and is unrelated to shimming for personal alignment with the blade.  That is a separate thing.) I use a washer with each of the panhead screws so I don't dent the sole plate while tightening the screws.  Once there is an indentation in the sole plate, the screw will want to grab into it and pull the plate sideways, which makes it really difficult to make small adjustments as needed when the skater tests the blades.  I always verify that the blade is straight.  It seems like that shouldn't be an issue, but I can't count the number of temp-mounted blades that our skaters have been sent with the blade temp-mounted on an arc. 

PREPARING FOR THE FINAL MOUNTING
Once the skater has tried the blades and they have been adjusted to their new final position, I really like to avoid removing the blade from the boot.  In many cases, it would be acceptable to mark the location and remove and replace the blades, but for skaters with custom boots and custom insoles, the blade needs to stay exactly where it is to be sure it will still feel right.  This means that I have to mark and drill the holes with the blade in place.  This means I can't use the nice centering drill bit on any of the holes that are close to the blade--I can use it on the wider spots on the front plate, but not at the front and not on the heel.  And if the sole plates aren't flat (I'm talking to you, MK and Wilson!), then I also can't use the jig that assures my drill bit is perpendicular to the plate. 

ADDING THE BEVELED SCREWS--LOCATION AND SCREW LENGTH
When adding additional screws in the beveled holes, there is a lot to think about.  How many?  Which holes?  For traditional leather boots, I add one screw at the toe and one at the heel, one in front of the sliders and one behind the sliders, all on alternating sides so the blade is secure but there are evenly distributed options for adding new screws later (in case of stripping of screws or adding a new blade).  If the skater is heavier or tall and is a big jumper, I use a longer screw (1" or 1 1/4") on the heel of the landing foot.  Most jumps are landed on a backward outside edge, which puts the back outside of the sole plate in compression and the back inside in tension.  I put the single screw in the heel into the back inside hole for this reason--the blade is more likely to move under tension than under compression.  With that same thought in mind, I place the screws in the front sole plate of the landing foot so that the widest part of the plate has a screw on the inside rather than the outside.  Am I overthinking this?  Of course.  That's my role here...most skaters are not ever going to think about any of this, so they rely on their skate tech to make these decisions.  And they hope that the basis for these decisions is some kind of logic.

I use #6 stainless panhead and cone-head screws unless proprietary screws are required.  For leather soles, the stainless screws hold up much better when the leather gets wet.

Some of the newer boots like Edea say to add all the screws (Edea brand), which I grudgingly do, mumbling to myself about how much fun it's going to be to plug and redrill all those holes for the next set of blades.  Risport says they won't honor their warranty if you don't use their special screws, so I use the proprietary screws (which don't look all that special to me). 

ALIGNMENT OF THE HOLES FOR BEVELED SCREWS
For the beveled holes, if the screw is not perfectly centered, the last bit of tightening will press part of the beveled screw head against one side of the sole plate and cause the blade to move over.  This usually pulls the blade into an arc because the other end of the blade is fixed. A couple of things help when you have drilled your hole, are adding a screw, and can see that it is not quite perfectly centered.  If it is very close, particularly if it is not on custom boots/custom insoles, I will loosen the slider screws a bit, then tighten the beveled screw, then re-tighten the slider screws.  This only works on the first beveled screw in the front and back, of course.  Since I'm usually only planning on adding one beveled screw to the heel, I often select the front of the boot as the location for the other first beveled screw, since it places those two screws farthest apart. 

Once the first two are in place and tightened, it's time to hold your breath while you do the rest.  I'm only sort of joking.  I have mounted hundreds of blades and I still am holding my breath, particularly on the last hole.  Why?  Because at this point, any tiny deviation is going to destroy the perfectly straight blade you have been creating.  I mark the hole as described above, drill it, and then start to insert the screw.  As the screw gets down into the bevel, if it is off center, my recommendation is Do Not Tighten It Any Farther.  It will pull the sole plate sideways in that specific location, making the blade move over, but the blade is already constrained at the front and back, so all it can do is move sideways, which creates a curve.  So--if the hole is not perfectly centered, I use a panhead screw and a washer instead of a beveled screw.  It's very secure as far as attachment goes, and you have already assured that the front and back are held in place with your first two beveled screws.  After adding each screw, I check that the blade is still straight.  Most of the time, I have to loosen and tighten screws several times to get it to be straight, even with all of these precautions and a lot of experience. Mounting is best done when you don't have time constraints--it is going to take as long as it takes, and you just keep working on it until it is right.

So you may ask, does all of this really matter?  Do blades need to be perfectly straight?  All I can say is that I have skated on blades that were mounted on a slight curve and it feels terrible.  I have seen many skaters get new skates and find that they are suddenly struggling...then they bring me the new skates and the blade is mounted as an arc instead of a straight line.  I straighten the blade and the struggles go away.  Same is true for mounting location--the blade needs to run from the center of the front of the foot (roughly the second toe) to the middle of the heel.  If the skates have a sloppy fit, the foot can find where to stand over the blade.  If the skates have a tight fit, there isn't much room for deviation. If the blade is off-center, you have to do a bunch of compensating moves to balance, which take away from your ability to keep building skill.  I have had to re-locate blades on many skates.  It's disheartening how little craftsmanship is used on mounting in most cases.

Quote from: Query on February 04, 2022, 08:17:38 PM
The countersink area of the tool fits exactly into the countersunk bevel in the hole - and they rest against each other. Thus, there is no tilt of the tool wrt the bevel, and it is exactly on-center.

Some sort of spring mechanism inside the tool shots a sharp nail-like object at the surface below, making a mark. It's really very simple.

Do you have a link to your tool?  When I do a search, I come up with the Starrett automatic unit that Bill showed, or a similar manual unit (non-spring-loaded, you tap it with a hammer)?  They do not eliminate tilt, and some people suggest additional DIY guides to eliminate (or at least reduce) tilt.  So I'd be interested in your specific unit.

Quote from: supersharp on February 04, 2022, 10:53:38 PM
NOTE: Before marking anything, I always first look at the plates and make sure that they are roughly perpendicular to the blade at the stanchions--there is a lot of curvature on many of the plates that makes this analysis difficult, and I wish blade manufacturers would just make the dang things flat.  I also look for any other defects that would make me reject new blades.  Everything written below here is about the process after the blades have been judged acceptable.

...

* Great write-up.  Many of the steps I use are similar, but with some significant differences.

* I don't mount blades professionally.  I do it for myself, and for a small group of skaters that I like (including my coach, an advanced freestylist, and an advanced ice dancer) when they run into issues that their usual techs can't (or won't) resolve, or when their usual techs are MIA at a crucial moment.

* From a design perspective, I take it for granted that (a) the heel and sole of the boot and the mounting plates of the blade are not flat, (b) the mounting plates of the blade do not sit flush against the heel and sole of the boot, and (c) overall, the mounting geometry is non-ideal and irregular.

* So rather than spending significant effort trying to center and align holes perfectly (whatever that means, given the irregular geometry), I use a mounting system that accommodates irregularities.  On both the elongated slots and countersunk circular holes, I use pan-head/round-head screws with non-metallic, compressible washers inserted between the screw heads and mounting plate.  [Correction:  The screws I use are technically listed as pan head, not round head.  But they are Phillips head and tend to be more rounded than slotted pan head.  You can use pan head or round head; pan head protrudes less than round head.] The washers I use are commonly listed as "fiber" washers.  You can also use stiff plastic washers (e.g., nylon, polypropylene, polyethylene, or ABS), but not soft washers (e.g., leather, felt, or rubber).  These washers provide a firm, reliable mount; yet, provide a "floating" mount to accommodate irregular geometry and relieve excessive shear stress on the screw and mounting plate.  And this is particularly advantageous when I need to insert shims between the mounting plate and boot to correct for foot and leg alignment issues.

[I'll add more comments later, but I need to head off for a root canal.  ]

ETA:  Back from the endodontist.  Additional comments:

* I don't have the special drill bit extenders that allow me to drill all the holes while the blade is on the boot.  For the initial temp mount, I tape the blade onto the boot, and trace the outlines of the four elongated mounting slots with a thin, carbide-tipped scribe; that gives me good control.  If the soles and heels are of light material, I first color the regions near the slots (and other target holes) with a dark marker.  The soles and heels of my own boots are painted black; with these,  I just directly scribe the black paint.  After the tracings, I remove the blade.  Since the soles and heels are fabricated from soft materials, I don't see the need for an automatic center punch.  Instead, I just use the same thin, carbide-tipped scribe as a center punch.  I find that it gives me better control than dedicated center punches, which tend to have broader tips.  After I make the center indents, I drill the holes for the elongated slots.

* Where I find centering the most critical is on the elongated slots used for temp mounts.  If you want to maintain the full range of adjustment, all four screws need to be well centered, or at least consistently off-center.  Otherwise, if some screws are shifted towards the inside, and some screws are shifted towards the outside, you will end up with little (or no) adjustment range, defeating the whole purpose of elongated slots in the first place.

* Once the temp mount is satisfactory, I trace the outlines of the target countersunk holes.  I also trace the complete peripheries of the sole plate and heel plate of the blade onto the sole and heel of the boot (I use a fine-tipped marker for this).  This allows me to reposition the blade precisely after I demount it to drill the remaining target holes.  Again, I use the scribe to make center indents for drilling.

* When I remount the blade, I make sure that the sole plate and heel plate are properly aligned with their tracings on the sole and heel of the boot. I install the screws in the elongated slots first, and tighten them down gradually.  As I tighten the screws, I repeatedly check with a straight edge that the blade is straight.   Since the elongated slots allow additional clearance, there's far less chance of bending the blade than you would if you installed countersunk screws first.

* Once  the screws in the elongated slots are firmly tightened, then I install the screws in the target countersunk holes.  Using the pan-head/round-head screws and fiber washers I've described above in a floating mount, it's highly unlikely that a mounting plate will shift when you install the additional screws, even if the pilot holes are somewhat off center or somewhat off angle. 

* I personally like to maintain equal compression across the inside and outside of mounting plates, so I prefer to mount screws in pairs; that is, if I install a screw on the outside of a mounting plate, I prefer to install the corresponding screw directly opposite on the inside of the mounting plate.

Sounds like you two have really thought things through. Wonderful!

This has gotten way off  topic.

Back on topic, I'd still like to know all the uses a boot holder is good for.

But briefly back off-topic:

It never occurred to me to shim or insert skate screws with washers. Cool idea! Among other things, it probably keeps continuous pressure on both the surface and the screw, so they are less likely to gradually "creep" loose. I knew an electrician who sometimes used washers on screw terminals for precisely that reason. (He preferred to double-nut, but there may not be space to do that on skate mounts.) It makes complete sense, and I should have thought of it.

tstop4me, I don't even know exactly what center punch I bought.  I honestly didn't know there was more than one type.  I just went into a hardware store, Peope's Supply Company in Hyattsville, MD, that catered to the construction trade, and asked what to use. I think it was made by Stanley, and it was $8 retail, 1 or 2 decades ago. It's the same idea as  these:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/3-Pieces-Center-Pin-Punch-Automatic-Center-Strike-Spring-Loaded-Window-Breaker-Drilling-Marking-Tool-Yellow-with-Cap/109470280?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101075122

https://www.rightonwithjoncrane.com/toollist

I can't think of any reason why the tools with an external spring instead of an internal spring are any worse. But I haven't used one, so am not sure.

Of course you don't want a tool that you can't hold vertical and straight next to the runner in the blade. The fat ball handle in the first link above might make that impossible. It was easier on the old Matrix I blades I still use, because I could remove the runner, giving me extra space to work. I so wish that sort of thing had been standardized and was in use by all brands. Or maybe the way it is  (was??) done in some speed skates, where the blade holder is built into the sole of the boot, and is easily adjustable for orientation and offset. (Short and long track speed skaters also use it to deliberately warp their blade - unlike us - because they always go CCW. Maybe low end public skaters in crowded sessions that always go CCW should do that too...)

I know you realize that you should NOT assume that I use the best tools for the job. I have no training to even know what they are. And as I said, I've had to learn from making mistakes - very often.

It is also my impression that people who have a lot of experience using tools, from childhood, can often make do with simpler tools than I can. E.g., a lot of people can hand-hold a drill, and drill things in almost perfectly centered and at an almost perfect right angle.

They can hammer in a nail at an almost perfect right angle too, in just  two strokes - one tap to set the angle and position, one strong stroke to drive it slightly under the surface. (The electrician showed me that. 

If I tried to do what he did, not only would I mess it up, but I might hit my finger. I've sometimes done silly things like drill holes in a piece of wood, and cut the wood through the center of the holes, to make a two piece nail stand. Then I put the two pieces of wood together again, insert a nail in the appropriate size hole, and hammer it in several tapes until it is near the wood surface. Then remove the nail stand, and hammer it in the rest of the way.

But, now that I think of it, a pilot hole might be a better approach to setting a nail orthogonal to the surface.
How do you do it, for nails? However you were trained, it is probably better.

It's been talked about in this forum before (Bill_S provided links to the good stuff) but I think an equally important thing is to use excellent grade stainless steel screws. NOT plated (e.g., galvanized) screws, that rust very fast, even if you carefully dry and maybe even oil them after skating - which you should do anyway. (Based on kayaking and roof racks, in or near saltwater, which might apply to people who skate on salty or polluted lakes, even the best marine grade stainless steels, and aluminum, eventually corrode, to the point you have to do things like use a drill bit extractor, or even a tap and die set,  to remove a screw or bolt, by creating a new head, or drilling into the interior of the screw or bolt, and cutting a new reverse thread on it. I needed help to figure that out too.)

I try to treat ice skating as a water sport, that needs water and corrosion resistant materials and treatments, like salt water boating.

You all know this, because you all have more experience than me with tools, but it is so easy to over-tighten a screw in a leather outsole, to the point of stripping the threads. If I were an engineer, perhaps I could list the ideal torque. Instead I have had to learn by feel what works. It is somewhat less likely to strip if I push hard with the screwdriver as I screw it in. I push as hard as I can with control, but perhaps an engineer could say exactly how hard to push too. I still sometimes mess up. Sometimes I need to use a different hole, or fill a hole with Shoe Goo or a wooden dowel before re-using it. That also works if you drill a hole a little off-center from where it should be, and you need to redo it.

Anyway, let's get back to the boot holder, and what it is useful for.

supersharp:
tu dis : J'utilise une vis à tête cylindrique large et une rondelle au lieu d'une vis biseautée.
La vis à tête cylindrique est la même que les 4 premières vis que tu mets pour régler les patins?
La rondelle: est aussi en inox? et tu ajoutes cette rondelle à la dernière vis seulement ou on peut le faire sur plusieurs vis?

Si tu as vu quelques uns de mes commentaires: c'est déjà compliqué d'affuter. Maintenant s'ajoute  en plus de cela quasiment aucun patins que j'ai vu n'a une lame super droite.
Et c'est horrible.
Je te remercie pour toutes tes précisions techniques.

I use stainless washers on every pan head screw, sized to match the screws.

In the US the size of screw I use is #6, so I use #6 stainless screws and washers along or #6 oval head screws without washers. The cone head is similar to the oval head, but the edge of the cone head is usually flat, giving it a sharper edge at the perimeter of the head. The oval head is slightly domes and less likely to be sharp. Not an important thing, but I've seen skating tights ripped by poorly installed cone head screws.

If the blades are a replacement, sometimes I have to use the next size larger screw since the holes may be slightly enlarged from use. In that case, I use #8 screws. Anything larger than #8 will start getting thread damage as it goes through the sole plate, so if #8 is not secure, I fill the hole and re-drill for a #6.

I use the same type of screws that Bill mentions in an older post.

I'll send photos later when I'm back from my construction site.

Quote from: Query on February 05, 2022, 08:19:41 PM

tstop4me, I don't even know exactly what center punch I bought.  I honestly didn't know there was more than one type.  I just went into a hardware store, Peope's Supply Company in Hyattsville, MD, that catered to the construction trade, and asked what to use. I think it was made by Stanley, and it was $8 retail, 1 or 2 decades ago. It's the same idea as  these:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/3-Pieces-Center-Pin-Punch-Automatic-Center-Strike-Spring-Loaded-Window-Breaker-Drilling-Marking-Tool-Yellow-with-Cap/109470280?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101075122

https://www.rightonwithjoncrane.com/toollist

I can't think of any reason why the tools with an external spring instead of an internal spring are any worse. But I haven't used one, so am not sure.

Of course you don't want a tool that you can't hold vertical and straight next to the runner in the blade. The fat ball handle in the first link above might make that impossible.

*  For the benefit of future readers who might come across this thread, I'd like to point out that the center punches you've cited are not suitable as self-centering punches on countersunk holes.  I have three high-end units (all made by Starrett) of similar design, as shown in PIX 1.  They are all "automatic" center punches in that the tip is spring-loaded:  you place the tip on the surface to be marked and press down on the handle; an internal spring mechanism provides the impact force on the tip.  In contrast, with a "manual" center punch, you place the tip on the surface and tap the top of the handle with a hammer. 

*  The tip is typically at the end of a shaft with a conical body.  If the body is wide enough, you can indeed seat the body against a countersunk conical recess.  PIX 2. shows the body of one such punch seated in the countersunk conical recess of a sole plate of a blade.

*  But PIX 3. shows why such a punch is not self-centering.  First, when the cone is fully seated, the tip protrudes ~1/4" above the mounting plate.  So if the mounting plate is pressed against the sole of a boot, the cone does not have sufficient clearance to be fully seated.  That's why the punch that Bill described has a retractable sleeve that is fully seated for shallow clearances.  [Note:  The retractable sleeve does not provide the impact force for the tip; there is still a separate internal spring mechanism to provide the impact force.]   Second, even if the body is fully seated, we see that the longitudinal axis of the punch can be tilted with respect to an axis orthogonal to the plane of the mounting hole.  PIX 3.  shows an exaggerated view.  But if you are interested in precision centering, small tilts can throw the punch mark off with respect to the center of the mounting hole.  As Bill confirmed, that's also an issue with the self-centering punch he described, though to a far lesser degree.  A fully self-centering punch would also need a guide to align the longitudinal axis of the punch orthogonal to the plane of the mounting hole.

[Click on photos to enlarge.]

In your picture, the skate is right side up. I work with the skate upside down, so the tool rests on the ccountersunk area of the hole in the mounting plate.

All I know is that I don't tilt my tool. I could push it out of tilt if I wanted to. But if I don't, it rests vertically on that countersunk area.

Do you have in mind a specific brand and model of tool that would work well?