Do blade widths vary by manufacturer?

[MCsAngel2]

Why do the ROH recommendations vary so much if not so? In beginner blades, Jackson Ultima recommends 1/2" (which is what I have and is my ROH). Wilson and MK recommend 7/16" (which my tech thinks all blades should be sharpened to). Eclipse recommends 5/8" (!!!!).

In intermediate blades, Ultima recommends 7/16". MK and Wilson the same. Eclipse has one at 5/8 and two at 7/16". At competitive and advanced, they're all 7/16". Of course dance blades have smaller ROHs and I know *they* are thinner.

To me, recommending a different ROH only makes sense if blades have different widths. Going by the numbers, seems MK and Wilson must have thinner blades than Ultima, and Ultima has thinner blades than Eclipse.

[tstop4me]

To me, recommending a different ROH only makes sense if blades have different widths. Going by the numbers, seems MK and Wilson must have thinner blades than Ultima, and Ultima has thinner blades than Eclipse.

Don't know whether blade thickness is the same for all models by the same manufacturer (allowing for the exception of certain dance blades).  Isolated data points for my blades:  Wilson Coronation Ace ~0.160", Eclipse Aurora ~0.150", Paramount 12" (Gold Seal copy) ~0.160".  So for these examples, the Eclipse is thinner than the Wilson.

The manufacturer's recommended ROH is only a rough guide.  Much depends on the individual skater (weight, skill level, and personal preference), type of maneuvers, and ice temp.  The top freestylist at my rink is petite, wears Pattern 99, but uses a fairly flat grind (3/4").  Eclipse also recommends 1" for their dance blade (definitely a slimline/thinline).  Best to ignore the manufacturer's recommendations.

ETA 1:  Eclipse has two intermediate blades that are nominally comparable to the Coronation Ace:  the Aurora and the Quantum (lightweight version).  I don't know whether the Quantum has the same thickness as the Aurora.  But if a manufacturer wants to cut weight, it will make the blade thinner, not thicker.  Yet, the recommended ROH for the Aurora is 7/16", but for the Quantum is 5/8".  Try to figure that out (unless Eclipse assumes that Quantum skaters will have a higher level of edge control than Aurora skaters).

Also, for their advanced blades, Eclipse recommends 5/8" for Pinnacle (nominally comparable to Gold Seal) and 7/16" for Infinity (nominally comparable to Pattern 99); so there isn't the consistency you suggest.

ETA 2:  I crunched the numbers.  Assuming that (a) the Quantum has a different thickness than the Aurora and (b) the edge angles on the Quantum with an ROH of 5/8" are equal to the edge angles on the Aurora (thickness = .150") with an ROH of 7/16", the thickness of the Quantum would be .214".  This would be much thicker than any freestyle blade I've come across (and highly unlikely for a lightweight blade); so the difference in recommended ROH is not due to difference in thickness.

[masterblaster]

I would guess it's matching the ROH to the presumed skill of the skater using a particular blade, e.g. a 1/2" ROH on a beginner blade makes things like learning snowplow stops easier, while the deeper 7/16" on an intermediate blade lends more security for jump landings. But like tstop said, in reality the suggestions are just suggestions, and the individual circumstances/preferences/skating style of the skater make a bigger difference.

[Bill_S]

Some suggested ROH values make no sense either. For example take a look at the thin-blade Riedell Eclipse Dance with a suggested ROH of 1".

https://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/dance#.XaTlDGYpCbg

That's patch skate territory. It's not for someone wanting to hold deep edges in dance. Unless proven otherwise, I suspect a typo.

I take all suggested ROH numbers with a grain of salt.

BTW, both Jackson blades I tested have thicknesses of 0.150". It looks like the vast majority of freestyle blades are in the 0.150" - 0.160" range.

[tstop4me]

Some suggested ROH values make no sense either. For example take a look at the thin-blade Riedell Eclipse Dance with a suggested ROH of 1".

https://ice.riedellskates.com/products/blades/dance#.XaTlDGYpCbg

That's patch skate territory. It's not for someone wanting to hold deep edges in dance. Unless proven otherwise, I suspect a typo.

I've wondered whether that's a typo, but it's been posted like that for at least several years.  One of my friends is an intermediate solo ice dancer.  She had been using a low-level freestyle blade with a trimmed drag pick.  Last summer, she finally decided to upgrade to a proper dance blade.  Like many skaters, she first shirked at the price of the MK Dance, and was seriously considering the Eclipse Dance.  She saw the recommended ROH of 1" and didn't think she could hold her edges.  I told her not to worry about the recommended value: Eclipse blades come unsharpened, and she can use whatever ROH she wants.  But that recommended ROH value kept nagging at her, and she splurged on the MK instead.

[MCsAngel2]

Has anyone here ever changed ROH values after changing blade models?

[Loops]

Not really. I'm on really hard brittle hockey ice, which is one of the factors in my choice of ROH (you'll see that also referred to as a "grind").

I'm on a 3/8. I could see myself going shallower if we had nice soft figure skating ice. Maybe.

I do have a 1.5" ROH on my patch blades (silver test). These blades are also visibly wider than my freestyle blades (in contrast to the slimline dance blades), but I don't have any fancy tools with which to measure them.

[tstop4me]

Has anyone here ever changed ROH values after changing blade models?

I've not changed ROH specifically because I changed blade models.  But for the same blade, I have changed ROH to experiment with the effect of ROH on my skating and to find out what works best for me.

[celia]

Has anyone here ever changed ROH values after changing blade models?

I have skated in Pattern 99 for a long while.  I used to have a 3/8" grind (when I sharpened my skates with a Pro-Filer, and they had limited ROH), then went to a 7/16" grind (sometime after I went back to having a shop sharpen for me).
 
I have silver test patch skates on a 1-1/4" grind that I don't really use very much but keep around for "someday."

[MCsAngel2]

Question - why would someone want a flatter grind for patch skates? What difference does it make?

[Bill_S]

More glide from any given push.

[Loops]

Question - why would someone want a flatter grind for patch skates? What difference does it make?

Exactly what Bill_S says: more glide. I don't know if you ever did patch, so forgive me if you know, but this makes it easier to get around your circles- they can be huge- diameter is supposed to be 3x your height (I'm 5'8" and was already when I was working on my 3rd test).  1.5 is a particularly flat.  I suspect as my tests went up in difficulty, and I gained in skill, I'd have gone to a slightly deeper grind for cleaner 3's and brackets (although I didn't have a problem with that back in the day).

[MCsAngel2]

I didn't realize that patch meant figures... I thought it was another term for freestyle sessions (I've seen it used that way by British posters). I couldn't figure out why someone would want such flat blades when practicing jumps and spins!

[Loops]

Lol yes the brits do use the word differently.  Divided by a common language, we are!

[celia]

I didn't realize that patch meant figures... I thought it was another term for freestyle sessions (I've seen it used that way by British posters). I couldn't figure out why someone would want such flat blades when practicing jumps and spins!

LOL!  Not to mention no bottom toepick!

The first time I went back on the ice on the 1-1/4" grind I needed a few minutes to feel like I could still skate!  After that, the figures were actually easier.

I once tried speed skates and they basically have an infinite ROH (they are ground completely flat across).  My first thought as I slid sideways was "these feel like patch (figures) skates!"

[Query]

I notice your subject refers to blade width, but your initial post relates to ROH.

BTW, I may be completely wrong about this, but I think most people assume the Eclipse Dance recommended ROH of 1" is a mistake. However, it is true that Dance skaters put a big emphasis on skating fast.

The "Slimline" part of the MK Dance is, I think, only thin in the bottom "chrome relief" section. Most of the blade runner is about the same thickness as many other MK and Wilson blades.

BTW, some of the earliest school figures blades were much thicker than anything MK or Wilson makes now.

AFAICT, school figures is/was generally done at lower speeds over the ice than modern freestyle and dance = so it didn't need as sharp an edge to prevent sideways slippage. Maintaining what speed you had long enough to complete the figure was more important than an ultra-sharp edge.

To confuse things further, small ROH isn't the only form of sharpness. E.g., I was taught to create "foil edges" - specifically, a sharpening lip or burr is polished and redirected into a thin planer surface that points into the ice. (Some  hockey players prefer a "flat bottom V" grind, which sort of produces the same thing, but probably not quite as sharp.) In contrast, many, perhaps most skate techs deliberately dull the edge somewhat after sharpening it, the the effective sharpness isn't even as great as a perfect corner between the hollow surface and the sides of the blade would be. And "dovetail  ground blades" (called side-honing by some, but the definitions of that term differ), in which the bottom-most portion of the blade is thicker than the portion above it, lead to a thinner edge angle, and therefore also increase effective sharpness. I'm not sure whether parabolic grinds (in which the middle length is thinner than the ends) also effectively create sharper edges - they have that type of effect in skis, but the thickness change is greater, and skis have a "camber" which means they flatten as the weight load increases, which helps skiers make sharper turns.) I also think that a microscopic raggedness of the edge might help make an edge act sharper, but can offer no evidence for that at this time.

Does that confuse you? Oddly enough, although people have been ice skating for quite some time (and probably skiing, sometimes on ice or icy snow, for even longer), not everyone agrees which blade and edge shapes work best.

So blade manufacturers try to meet the needs of a diverse community by offering diverse blade models, with different characteristics. That also helps keep prices high, because there is less competition within a given blade shape.

BTW, I switched to 3/8" ROH, because I found a sharpening tool that produced that, and I prefer to sharpen my own skates. But that is a smaller ROH than I might prefer, so probably slows down the blade a fair bit, and reduces glide time.