Feet hurt - is it my new boots or is it me?

[MCsAngel2]

What exactly does it feel like when your new boots hurt?

I've had seven skating sessions, about 6.5 hours total on the ice, about 11 hours total wearing the skates. I take a LOT of breaks to sit down, the last two sessions I'm doing that less, and just standing at the wall and resting a foot at a time on the heel of the blade, but last night I did it more again.

I've never thought that the BOOTS were uncomfortable, except for the first time when I laced the instep too tight. I feel like they are exactly the right size.

The soles of my feet begin aching something fierce after 10 minutes or so. When that happens, I sit for a minute or take my weight off at the wall, and they stop hurting. They feel like I've been walking all day (like when I went to Europe and walked miles a day when I wasn't used to it). I've had plantar fascitis before, I don't have it right now but I feel like I'm about to get it again.

I did think it was just the boots at first, but now I wonder if it's me. I have flat feet. I pronate slightly, and have a small orthotic wedge in one boot to help with that. Otherwise, it's the insoles that came with the Jacksons.

ETA: I skated 12 hours ago, and my feet are still achy this morning. (That isn't usually the case). And since it might be relevant, I'm about 40 pounds overweight.

Advice is needed.

[lutefisk]

My experience when breaking in new boots is not the aching soles which you describe.  Instead, my pains are pressure points, usually along the sides of the pinky toe and sometimes the great toe.  I recall that one pair of boots had a taste for my ankle bones.  Those sorts of pains are generally resolved by localized "punch outs" and/or gel padding and/or the boots breaking in.  You might want to experiment with different insoles. Have you consulted a fitter?

[MCsAngel2]

No, not yet as I've just begun thinking it's my feet. I was professionally fitted, and he was the same one to help me with the pronation with the wedge. I wanted to know what others thought, I didn't have pain issues at all when I skated as a teen (skates weren't stiff enough to be a problem.)

[icepixie]

Hate to say it, but in my experience soles that ache enough to warrant taking skates off often mean the boot's too narrow somewhere along the foot.  It could also be not enough padding between you and the bottom of the boot, but as you have a cushy Jackson insole that seems unlikely.

Every pair of boots until my current pair (customs) hurt...well, everywhere, but definitely along the soles.  All of them were too narrow.  Punching helped some, for some boots; at least, I was able to limp along in two pairs until they broke down enough to warrant new boots.

[MCsAngel2]

Hate to say it, but in my experience soles that ache enough to warrant taking skates off often mean the boot's too narrow somewhere along the foot.  It could also be not enough padding between you and the bottom of the boot, but as you have a cushy Jackson insole that seems unlikely.

Every pair of boots until my current pair (customs) hurt...well, everywhere, but definitely along the soles.  All of them were too narrow.  Punching helped some, for some boots; at least, I was able to limp along in two pairs until they broke down enough to warrant new boots.

Oh, I don't ever take the skates off. I don't even loosen the laces. I just sit to get the weight off my feet. And my soles aren't cramping (I know what that feels like from having laced too tightly before). They just feel like I've been walking for miles. After ten minutes.

I highly doubt the boots are the wrong size. I had a professional fitting and these are semi customs (EE width!!) I have no pain anywhere in the boot....it's only the bottom of my feet (not the side) that start aching.

Are Jackson's insoles cushy? Someone else said (on another board where I asked) that Jackson's insoles are very thin with no support.

[Sibelius]

Are Jackson's insoles cushy? Someone else said (on another board where I asked) that Jackson's insoles are very thin with no support.

The sock liners in Jackson lower level boots are thin and don't offer much of anything.  The Matrix Poron insoles that came in your Debut's are much more cushioned.  I replace them every 3 months in my skater's boots.  I'm sure there are "cushier" options, but that should probably be discussed at the initial fitting, otherwise whatever size you get may not be accurate with the different insoles.  Many skaters use Superfeet Yellow (I don't skate, but use them in my daily boots).  You can get them at most well stocked shoe stores.  They aren't cheap, but neither are those that came with your boots, they run $30/pair.

[tstop4me]

Are Jackson's insoles cushy? Someone else said (on another board where I asked) that Jackson's insoles are very thin with no support.

Note that thickness and support are not necessarily correlated:  it depends on the design and construction materials of the footbed.  For example, a thin footbed can be more supportive than a thick footbed.  [By the way, you're probably referring to my post in the other forum.  I never said that the Jackson insoles were very thin, only that they provide no support (in the context of skaters with flat feet)].  "Cushy" is yet another characteristic (needs to be defined more definitely for further discussion) dependent on design and construction materials, and not necessarily correlated with thickness.

[Query]

1. Sounds a lot like it could be a support or fit issue. You are probably going to wear these a lot more than 11 hours, and it shouldn't hurt, or create medical problems.

Each person has a certain range of imposed foot shapes that are comfortable, and going outside those shapes is uncomfortable, and sometimes even causes medical problems.

Unfortunately, skates and skating often put more stress on feet than ordinary walking does, and usually require a tighter fit which means that little problems matter more.

For the most part, the shape of the boot at the bottom won't change much when you break it in. Though the support to various parts of your feet offered by your insoles will change a bit over time, but you shouldn't have to wait for that.

Do you feel like you have approximately equal pressure on all parts of the bottom of your feet? Please answer for when your weight is on each foot, and off of it. I think roughly equal pressure is best, though some people apparently need extra support in certain places. And I know not everyone has feet that are sensitive enough to feel the pressure everywhere.

As an example, if you have relatively flat feet, your footbed/insole  shapes might be forcing your arch a little more upwards more than is comfortable. You can often adjust shape by doing something as simple as adding a little tape under the insole, in the right spots.

And if by "pronation", which I think is used by different people in slightly different ways, you mean that your foot (feet?) tends to collapse inwards when you put weight on it, it might help to do something more sophisticated than just adding a wedge, using two materials on opposite sides of the foot which distort by different amounts under weight - so each foot isn't pressed out of its comfortable shape when your weight is on it, or off of it. But that's complicated, and would require experimentation to fix. If you happen to see the (medical?) professional who fit you for the wedge (I assume it was fit to your skates, not another pair of shoes, right?), you might discuss this with him/her.

2. Do you feel like the sides of the boot pinch your foot at any point, forcing your arch upwards?

3. Muscle overuse to compensate for imbalance is also a potential pain source.

Are you gliding on one foot yet? You should feel balanced without much effort - i.e., you shouldn't feel you have to exert more muscle strength on either side of each foot to stay balanced over the center of your blade, or you could get sore just from muscle overuse. However - if you aren't gliding on one foot yet, you probably aren't on one foot enough of the time for it to matter.

4. One last possibility: friction "burns": the bottoms of your feet should stay in place. Unlike the way some people say a hiking boot should work, most people say your feet shouldn't slide around on any part of your feet below the ankles, or lift anywhere off of the bottom of the skate. Do they?

I hope you enjoy skating!

[MCsAngel2]

1. Sounds a lot like it could be a support or fit issue. You are probably going to wear these a lot more than 11 hours, and it shouldn't hurt, or create medical problems.

Each person has a certain range of imposed foot shapes that are comfortable, and going outside those shapes is uncomfortable, and sometimes even causes medical problems.

Unfortunately, skates and skating often put more stress on feet than ordinary walking does, and usually require a tighter fit which means that little problems matter more.

For the most part, the shape of the boot at the bottom won't change much when you break it in. Though the support to various parts of your feet offered by your insoles will change a bit over time, but you shouldn't have to wait for that.

Do you feel like you have approximately equal pressure on all parts of the bottom of your feet? Please answer for when your weight is on each foot, and off of it. I think roughly equal pressure is best, though some people apparently need extra support in certain places. And I know not everyone has feet that are sensitive enough to feel the pressure everywhere.

As an example, if you have relatively flat feet, your footbed/insole  shapes might be forcing your arch a little more upwards more than is comfortable. You can often adjust shape by doing something as simple as adding a little tape under the insole, in the right spots.

And if by "pronation", which I think is used by different people in slightly different ways, you mean that your foot (feet?) tends to collapse inwards when you put weight on it, it might help to do something more sophisticated than just adding a wedge, using two materials on opposite sides of the foot which distort by different amounts under weight - so each foot isn't pressed out of its comfortable shape when your weight is on it, or off of it. But that's complicated, and would require experimentation to fix. If you happen to see the (medical?) professional who fit you for the wedge (I assume it was fit to your skates, not another pair of shoes, right?), you might discuss this with him/her.

2. Do you feel like the sides of the boot pinch your foot at any point, forcing your arch upwards?

3. Muscle overuse to compensate for imbalance is also a potential pain source.

Are you gliding on one foot yet? You should feel balanced without much effort - i.e., you shouldn't feel you have to exert more muscle strength on either side of each foot to stay balanced over the center of your blade, or you could get sore just from muscle overuse. However - if you aren't gliding on one foot yet, you probably aren't on one foot enough of the time for it to matter.

4. One last possibility: friction "burns": the bottoms of your feet should stay in place. Unlike the way some people say a hiking boot should work, most people say your feet shouldn't slide around on any part of your feet below the ankles, or lift anywhere off of the bottom of the skate. Do they?

I hope you enjoy skating!

1. Yes, I think I do feel equal pressure on the sole of my feet. I do seem to be able to 'feel' the blade, though. Not sure what that means, I've googled this topic a lot and have found similar stories. I have ordered some yellow superfeet, to arrive by the end of the week. I am hopeful this will help.

2. Nope, no pinching anywhere after they were heat molded the day I first got them.

3. Muscle overuse to compensate for balance - this could be part of it. When I started, (beginning of May), I had to sit frequently because my entire legs would tense up after 2 laps. That tension seems to be gone, but I wonder if I still have it in just my feet. No, not doing one foot glides yet (I've tried). I can't even stroke truly properly yet. I am trying to do balance exercises whenever I can.

4. I do have issues with one heel lifting (this is better since getting gel sleeves) and every once in a while, when I lift my foot, I can feel it lifting in the boot. This is either me not tying the instep tight enough, or it's a volume issue that I also hope the superfeet insole will help.

I certainly am surprised at how much trouble I'm having. It's really impeding my ability to work on skills at all, I seem to spend most of my time doing laps, trying to correct my stroking technique. I've had so few moments where I really feel that joy of gliding effortlessly across the ice, because of the foot pain.

I kind of think it's a confluence of issues - overcompensating for balance, alignment/pronation issues, and my weight. I do know there are other overweight skaters who don't have problems, but I think all of these exacerbate everything else. I don't have any physical issues moving on a daily basis, but being on the ice has made me feel 20 years older.

I desperately hope things improve, I really want to be able to skate like I did when I was young.

[Query]

4. I do have issues with one heel lifting (this is better since getting gel sleeves) and every once in a while, when I lift my foot, I can feel it lifting in the boot.

You can't possibly have a snug fit everywhere, or it would prevent such motion. In particular, you must have a little empty space, or an area of reduced pressure, along the sides of the heel, and maybe a little bit behind the heel, to make room for such motion.

I assume you understand, by the way, that a skate boot should actually snugly squeeze your foot everywhere below the ankle except maybe at the toes, right? Skates don't fit as loose as normal shoes, because almost any motion inside the skate (except the motion ahead of and behind the ankle bones, needed to allow your ankle to point and flex) could easily lead to loss of control and injury. On the other hand, small amounts of motion inside normal a normal shoe (with the exception of certain types of dance and climbing shoe) doesn't do much harm. In effect, due to lever arm issues, skates are like stilts - tiny amounts of uncontrolled motion get telegraphed into huge losses of control of what the blades do.

If I were you, I would be tempted to put something alongside the heels. E.g., add cloth athletic tape under the insole across the heel, and extending past the edge of the insoles, in such a way that it wraps around the heel. It can stick to the bottom of the boot, under the insole, and sticking as well as it can to the insides of the boot. It may be hard to make it stick for long periods of time - carefully cut moleskin sticks a little better to the sides of the boot, but is a little harder to work with.

And maybe a little something extending behind the heel, sticking to the back of the heel of the boot.

There are other ways to reshape your insole. To form my insoles, I take a piece of foam (I use 6' or 7' long camping pad, bought for $7 at Walmart, because it's cheap, and is skin-safe), and cut it to the exact desired 3D shape with a scissors. I gradually cut it down, and try it again with my foot inside the boot, until it feels perfect. But I used tape first, on the insole, or on a cardboard cut-out traced from the insole, to figure out what shape I want. Regrettably, camping pad foam squishes down over a period of months, so I need to redo it once in a while, but one camping pad provides enough material for many years. I should do it right, with a good quality urethane foam, with a thin layer of moleskin to make it skin-safe. That would retain its shape much longer, I think.

If you saw someone like a good sports podiatrist to get your wedges shaped to you, he/she might be able to help. That's their profession, and they are supposed to understand how shoes work a lot better than those of us who use trial and error to make even the basics work. The only problem is, despite that, some of them don't understand just how snug skates need to be, and don't understand the way forces in a skate work. E.g., a wedge inside the boot or on the boot bottom between the sole and the blade mount, doesn't just create a desired pressure on your foot - instead, to some extent, it just causes the the boot and blade to tilt, sometimes in a undesirable manner - because you are balanced on an edge, not balanced across a large area. (That's not completely true, because the sides of the boot may also create a counter-acting torque that undoes some of the torque effect on the boot and blade - but it's partly true.)

=====

If you aren't doing one foot glides, it isn't likely that the kind of muscle overuse I was thinking of is happening. I am talking about using muscles on ONE side of the leg and foot to compensate for balance, or reshape a foot to fit a boot. If you are on two feet, you don't need to do that. Though if you are stepping from one foot to the other (e.g., marching), you will need to commit, and place your whole weight (center of gravity) over each foot in turn. You more or less do that even when you are walking in bare feet or normal shoes on the ground, but maybe you forget to do it while you are in skates.

You COULD be making ALL the muscles too stiff. That is another kind of muscle overuse, that could eventually make you sore. I've seen some new skaters, who were so afraid of falling, freeze their muscles so much, they can't pick up a leg, or bend their knees. They say they aren't strong enough to take a step or bend a knee, when they are only fighting their own stiffness. To some extent, you might need to learn to relax a bit. Later, you will use selective muscle tension to create and control desired motions, but at first, a lot of people respond to an initial lack of balance by freezing stiff - which doesn't actually maintain balance very well. You may actually create better balance by relaxing, bending your knees deep into each step, and trying to keep your center of gravity over the base of support - which, on two legs, is midway between the two points of contact with the ice. Also, if you practice falling (gently) frequently enough, you will lose your fear of falls, and stop worrying about them, most of the time. If you have trouble with that, wear padding, gloves, and a helmet - i.e., pretend to be a hockey player.

A good way to understand the principles and methods of balance is to stand on the ground on one bare foot, or on one foot with a shoe on it. Notice how you retain your balance. You can do it by bending the knee a little, and making minor little corrections, to keep your weight over that foot. You can also, short term, make motions with your knee or arms, but that gets a bit complicated, because the benefit is temporary - though it can be long enough for you to push yourself back into balance, or take a step. Note, however, that if you freeze yourself completely stiff, you CAN'T stay balanced.

(Of course, you don't want to be completely loose either - or you will simply collapse to the ground. There is a middle ground, where you have control, but aren't too stiff or too loose.)

Anyway, I apologize for too long a response.

[MCsAngel2]

Sorry, when you asked if I had equal pressure everywhere on the bottom of my foot...I thought you meant the sole of my foot, not along the sides where it meets the boot.

It's true I have too much room on my right heel. The day I brought the skates home, I went out and bought a variety of makeup sponges and cut them up and stuck them where I have space, including behind the heel. I didn't cover them with electrical tape though, so they are now misshapen and need to be replaced. My superfeet yellow should be arriving today, so that's what I'll be playing with tonight. I like the idea of getting a huge foam pad and just cutting out one properly shaped piece. I looked at the area closely, and it's not an issue with the boot, the boot is padded down to where it meets the insole. I've noticed that the inside of the boot in the heel is actually shaped like a U, and through the weird effects of aging, my heel looks more like a rounded V, so where I have space is in the rounded u part of the insole. I think I will always have to add padding there to make it feel right, I don't think even custom boots could correct this. Gel pads for the achilles are helping.

[Casey]

In my experience, sore soles mean that I've laced the bottom parts of my boots too tight.  I like to leave the bottom half of the laces just taut enough, then lace up the ankles really good and as hard as I can.

[Query]

Gel pads for the achilles are helping.

One of the things you might discover is that when it comes to skates, or almost any sports equipment, is that if you ask N different people, you will get at least 2N different opinions.

E.g., I tried gel soles. I hated them. I want my boots to lock my feet into place and shape, whereas gel lets you move around. Maybe not slide, but still move.

I COULD imagine wanting it to cushion hard edges - the top of some boots, and the place where some boot tongues blend into the sides of the boot.

If you feel a need to cushion your Achilles, maybe it makes sense for your.

And there are many people in this forum who love gel, in the very places I would hate it.

You have to form your own opinions, and not believe any of us. Also, based on what you used to do, you were, and will soon be, a much better skater than me - so I probably don't know how to deal with some things.

As for cutting or carving or sanding your own foam insoles to shape, it only takes a few minutes, once you've done it a few times. But while you are figuring out what to do and what you need, there is a lot of trial and error. Maybe you should start with tape. It's easier to remove (or sand off) tape if you change your mind about something.

You got a really good start with that heat mold. It doesn't solve all problems, but I think that was one of the best ideas they ever had for stiff boots. Unfortunately, most skate boots don't heat mold the foot beds, or the sides of the boot very close to the bottom, and those are almost impossible to reshape using pressure either. That's where tape, inserts, and custom insoles really come into play.

[MCsAngel2]

One of the things you might discover is that when it comes to skates, or almost any sports equipment, is that if you ask N different people, you will get at least 2N different opinions.

E.g., I tried gel soles. I hated them. I want my boots to lock my feet into place and shape, whereas gel lets you move around. Maybe not slide, but still move.

I COULD imagine wanting it to cushion hard edges - the top of some boots, and the place where some boot tongues blend into the sides of the boot.

If you feel a need to cushion your Achilles, maybe it makes sense for your.

And there are many people in this forum who love gel, in the very places I would hate it.

You have to form your own opinions, and not believe any of us. Also, based on what you used to do, you were, and will soon be, a much better skater than me - so I probably don't know how to deal with some things.

As for cutting or carving or sanding your own foam insoles to shape, it only takes a few minutes, once you've done it a few times. But while you are figuring out what to do and what you need, there is a lot of trial and error. Maybe you should start with tape. It's easier to remove (or sand off) tape if you change your mind about something.

You got a really good start with that heat mold. It doesn't solve all problems, but I think that was one of the best ideas they ever had for stiff boots. Unfortunately, most skate boots don't heat mold the foot beds, or the sides of the boot very close to the bottom, and those are almost impossible to reshape using pressure either. That's where tape, inserts, and custom insoles really come into play.

LOL, you should read my reply in the other thread. My boots have shrunk a bit, causing me to have to remove most of the extra padding, except directly behind the heel where I added more.  I had been wearing the gel sleeves on that foot only as a way to add volume. After my issues this weekend, I wound up NOT wearing any gel sleeves today, I skate barefoot, and as a result, have had the best fit I've had yet (OMG MY RIGHT HEEL STAYED IN PLACE). The balls *are* feeling a bit too snug now, but overall an improvement. I feel perfection is just around the corner!