Jackson Debut Boot

[davincisop]

Do you think skaters will shy away from the Debut because they think, "Ewww!  That font stinks."?

no, but as someone that works with type for a living, it cheapens the look of the boot.

[AgnesNitt]

Do you think skaters will shy away from the Debut because they think, "Ewww!  That font stinks."?

The problems with the AVATAR font

[tstop4me]

no, but as someone that works with type for a living, it cheapens the look of the boot.

When I zoom in on the lettering [on the image on the Jackson website], I can see the outlines of impressions.  My guess is that a stamping operation is involved in the labelling, and any changes would involve retooling.  Unless they lose sales because of the aesthetics, I don't think they'll want to incur the costs.

[davincisop]

From what it looked like on the website it's embroidered. All the same it's a minor thing in the grand scheme of things but bothers me because I look at type all day for a living and would never send a clients work out with such poor kerning.

Anyways, back to the discussion of the boot itself.

[eonice]

Well, that was interesting. I ordered a pair online to replace my rotting Freestyles. I knew my size but decided not to take any chances and used the Jackson-specific charts which confirmed that my current size is correct. FAIL. So fail that my toes are being crushed in these things. At first I thought it was a difference in the padding...that maybe I need to heat mold them and break them in. But then I whipped out a tape measure and my mind was blown: the Debut sole is 1/4" shorter than the Freestyle at the same stamped boot size. Seriously? What the hell is this? I'll be making some calls tomorrow...

[Sibelius]

I looked at the blade size chart yesterday and for the Debut Fusion the recommended blade size is 1/4" smaller than for the other boots.  My skater would be in a 3 with an 8 1/4" blade in the Debut, but in the Elle and Freestyle it's 8 1/2 for the same size.

https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-blade-size-chart

[tstop4me]

I looked at the blade size chart yesterday and for the Debut Fusion the recommended blade size is 1/4" smaller than for the other boots.  My skater would be in a 3 with an 8 1/4" blade in the Debut, but in the Elle and Freestyle it's 8 1/2 for the same size.

https://skaterslanding.com/pages/jackson-blade-size-chart

I wonder if the Debut has a higher heel pitch.  For the same size, a higher heel pitch would result in a shorter sole length.

[Sibelius]

Just by looking at the photos on the Jackson site I think you're right, the heel on the Debut Fusion looks steeper, as well as the one on the Freestyle Fusion, compared to the old Freestyle model.  Could just be the angle of photo though.  The other difference is the width, R(A/B) and W(B/C) as opposed to the old A, B, C.  Too many variables to order a new style boot online I would think.  I'm glad we have a good fitter.  Unfortunately she doesn't stock much so we'd have to pay shipping and restocking fees.

[tothepointe]

I wonder if the Debut has a higher heel pitch.  For the same size, a higher heel pitch would result in a shorter sole length.

It does. They aren't just the Freestyles with a new sole it's a different last. I'm still adjusting a little to the higher heel since I was in Riedells before

At one point I was in the Freestyle and it's a snugger fit around the arch. I also tried the Competitor and Debut side by side and the Debut is a snugger fit. Which is what I needed.

[Sibelius]

I don't skate, so what does the higher heel mean for a skater?  Is it a drastic adjustment? I don't want my skater to be too thrown off at this stage, she'll be starting her Axel about the same time as she needs new skates.

[tstop4me]

I don't skate, so what does the higher heel mean for a skater?  Is it a drastic adjustment? I don't want my skater to be too thrown off at this stage, she'll be starting her Axel about the same time as she needs new skates.

Someone else can address the effects on jumps, since I don't jump.  About 3 yrs ago, I changed from an old pair of Riedell Royals to a new pair of Jackson Elites, which has a much higher heel pitch.  The biggest difference for me was in skating backwards.  I would pitch up forwards near the picks.  To compensate, I had to lean strongly backward.  I mentioned that to two techs at the shop (they're also skaters and coaches); and they told me that's common.  Couldn't figure out why it didn't affect my forward moves, though, just the backward ones.

[FigureSpins]

On spins, a higher heel puts the skater further forward on the 3-entrance to hook the spin, once the skater gets used to the balance point.  It also makes holding the "sweet spot" easier since it does pitch weight forward more, as tstop4me mentioned.  The skater doesn't have to consciously lift their heel to stay on that spot.  On jumps, it allows for faster "roll ups" to the toepick for edge jumps, and landings are balanced on the toepick without consciously pointing-and-flexing.  My own kids went from Riedell Bronze Medallions to Jackson Freestyles and the difference was great - you could see the difference.  (They were around 7 years old at the time.)

Higher heels rattle boys and men when they switch.  Some is just the stigma of "men wearing high heels is wrong." I'll not debate that-it's just superstition.

However, because human males have a higher center of gravity than females, changing to a higher heel affects their balance.  (That's also why boys struggle more with spirals and camels vs. girls.)  Balance exercises are critical for adult men to make the transition to a higher heel.  I don't know if the adjustment outweighs the heel benefits.  My suspicion is that men can just improve their balance and foot flex to get the same results the higher heel can bring.

[tstop4me]

...

Higher heels rattle boys and men when they switch.  Some is just the stigma of "men wearing high heels is wrong." I'll not debate that-it's just superstition.

However, because human males have a higher center of gravity than females, changing to a higher heel affects their balance.  (That's also why boys struggle more with spirals and camels vs. girls.)  Balance exercises are critical for adult men to make the transition to a higher heel.  I don't know if the adjustment outweighs the heel benefits.  My suspicion is that men can just improve their balance and foot flex to get the same results the higher heel can bring.

Thanks for the more detailed explanation.  Do you have an explanation of why (at least for a guy) the higher-pitched heel initially has a pronounced effect on backward stroking, but not forward stroking?

[Query]

Since people ask about high heels: When I, many, many moons ago, got high heels (about 2.25", if I recall right, but am not sure) on an Ice Dance boot (I was told by the dubiously competent fitter that Ice Dancers needed very high heels), it hurt so much it was virtually impossible to skate - had to send it back to the manufacturer to lower the heels. But I'm a guy, and my feet aren't very flexible. In particular, they can't point much. It also left me no flexibility room to point my foot even more, to initiate turns and such.

I've wondered whether I would be happier skating with a fully horizontal footbed. I love sandals like that, and I don't like much of a heel in shoes in general. But of course, walking isn't skating. Hockey and speed skaters often do it - but they aren't spinning, or doing the same types of jumps as figure skaters.

Phil of Harlick once told me that he had just custom fit a ballerina who wanted a flat horizintal footbed in her skates. She wanted them because that's the way most ballet slippers (excepting point shoes, I think) are designed. I have no idea whether the ballerina was pleased with her new skates.

Also, since people ask about men and balance: (Most) men have a substantially higher center of gravity than most women. I guess, that's because most men have wider and more massive shoulders than most women, and most women have wider hips than most men. (In addition, those of us who are heavier than we "should be" tend to have more of a "beer belly" if we are male, but put their fat a little lower, on average, if they are female.) That means that anything that pitches men's weight in one direction, is harder to compensate for. In particular, to be balanced if you are standing still ("static balance"), your center of gravity must be over your base of support. But that isn't completely true for a skater in motion, in part because the ice creates balancing forces on the boot.

There is a classic experiment: You stand about a foot () from a wall, legs straight, and lean against it with your forehead. Most women can come back to a standing pose without using their hands or arms, by using a little muscle. Most men physically can't. I may have the details a bit wrong. Also, it is going to depend a lot on your exact distribution of weight, and on the length of your feet (or shoes, I guess). But all the balance exercises in the world can't change the physics of that static balance problem.

What CAN change it is to bend your knees! That takes your center of gravity down, and back, until it is over part of your feet, and then you can be balanced again, with a little muscle use. As skaters, we are very often in better balance if we bend our knees fairly deeply.

So what does that have to do with a Jackson Debut boot? Very little. Nonetheless, if your feet can't point much, you should be cautious about very high heels, when ordering new boots.

[Isk8NYC]

Thanks for the more detailed explanation.  Do you have an explanation of why (at least for a guy) the higher-pitched heel initially has a pronounced effect on backward stroking, but not forward stroking?

You're asking for yourself, right?  I haven't seen that happen to any of my male skaters, buuuuut, I drill all my skaters on being upright while doing back crossovers and setting up jumps.  My guess would be that (without your awareness) you tended to lean forward when skating backward in your Riedells, and the higher heel on the Jacksons pushed you even more forward.  As a result, you were skating more on the front of the blade than before, maybe even a little hunch-backed.  What felt like "drastically sitting back" might have been the original desired posture.  You could compare videos of your skating before/after the boot change to confirm my guess. 

Just out of curiosity: did you change blades at the same time?  If that's the case, you just have to get used to the new gear and adjust your skating accordingly.

[tstop4me]

You're asking for yourself, right?  I haven't seen that happen to any of my male skaters, buuuuut, I drill all my skaters on being upright while doing back crossovers and setting up jumps.  My guess would be that (without your awareness) you tended to lean forward when skating backward in your Riedells, and the higher heel on the Jacksons pushed you even more forward.  As a result, you were skating more on the front of the blade than before, maybe even a little hunch-backed.  What felt like "drastically sitting back" might have been the original desired posture.  You could compare videos of your skating before/after the boot change to confirm my guess. 

Just out of curiosity: did you change blades at the same time?  If that's the case, you just have to get used to the new gear and adjust your skating accordingly.

Hi, thanks for the response.  The blades were the same (Coronation Ace), but 1/2" shorter on the Jacksons than on the Riedells, due to different boot sizings.  I talked to two male skate techs at my pro shop (both were former elite competitors and former pro skaters, now coaches), and they both told me they had the same experience when switching over to boots with higher heel pitch.  I understand that the higher heel pitch would pitch you more forward and that you would have to lean backward more to compensate.  But I would have expected this to be true when stroking forward as well as stroking backward.  Whereas, I distinctly remember when I first hit the ice with the Jacksons, I noticed very little change when stroking forwards, but, when going backwards, it was "Whoa!  What's going on? Why am I practically skating tippy-toe?"  So I thought something was seriously out of wack, and went back to the pro shop, where the guys told me that was typical until I adjusted to the new heel pitch.  But never got a good explanation of why backwards but not forwards.  I was fine after two weeks (10 sessions); I'm just curious about the mechanics.

[FigureSpins]

I've never seen you skate, so I can't tell you what your problem is/was with going forwards, backwards or sideways.  You'd have to look at videos of your skating to see what changed. You might have been gliding way back on the blade while going forward (to prevent tripping) and the heel height change just corrected that error.  It could also be that the old blades were mounted a little too far forward, so the short-blade mounting was more comfortable because it repositioned the rocker.  Maybe one set of blades wasn't aligned correctly.  New skates are stiff - backwards requires more knee bend than forwards.  I will say that it sounds like it's your particular situation, not necessarily a gender-wide issue that can be explained over the internet.  I notice blade length changes - I switched from one length to a shorter length (same boots/same blade model) and found that the rocker was too far forward for my taste.  It took a while to get my turns back in control.

[Sibelius]

Well, it sounds like there might be more +'s than -'s to trying the Debut Fusion when the time comes.  I hope that with this model turnover that Jackson will keep the line consistent for awhile, at least until she's ready for the next level boots.  It all seemed simple just a few weeks ago, from Elle's to Freestyles.  Now it seems like a bigger change coming up for her.  I guess there's really no optimal time to change boots, just have to get used to them.

[tothepointe]

Pointe shoes are also completely flat but you use the strength of your foot to change the shape of the shoe (plus some modification hacks. Not sure you'd want completely flat and stiff skates like that.

Incidentally shopping for ballet slippers and pointe shoes is even worse than shopping for skates because they change the models ALL.THE.TIME just as soon as you find the perfect pair they will be discontinued.

[Sibelius]

Good to know about ballet shoes and pointe shoes, let's buy 2!  I had one skate mom tell me a year or so ago to be glad I didn't have a ballet dancer, pointe was pricey.  Well, now my skater is in her first year of ballet, she's a long way from pointe, but I have no doubt she'll get there.  She was in her first Nutcracker on Saturday, an amazing performance by her ballet school, live professional orchestra included.  Those young ladies (and gentleman) were phenomenal.  Looking forward her 3 other performances!  Never thought I'd be a skate dad, much less a ballet one, but here I am. 

[Query]

How odd. Despite all this free publicity, I don't see anyone in this thread expressing an immediate intention to buy Debut boots.

[tstop4me]

How odd. Despite all this free publicity, I don't see anyone in this thread expressing an immediate intention to buy Debut boots.

? Two posters have indicated that they have already purchased the Debuts. 

[Sibelius]

How odd. Despite all this free publicity, I don't see anyone in this thread expressing an immediate intention to buy Debut boots.

Probably order in the next couple of weeks once we see them in the flesh (they just arrived) and work out what sole we can get.  Fitter says they might be order-able with the LCF or LCL soles she prefers instead of the grey.  If it's grey so be it, not too many options for my skater and when she says she needs new skates she needs them NOW!  From what I see vendors are selling off the old models they have in stock.  I see only one on-line vendor with the Debut Fusion available so far, all still seem to have Competitor boots on closeout.

I am surprised I haven't seen many out there, but when we looked at the previous non-fusion Debut model they were not in the right slot to replace the softer Freestyle (boot only) model so we went with a different boot at the time.  I talked to several coaches who thought they were much stiffer (closer to the Competitor) than Jackson was marketing them as. Hopefully Jackson has corrected that with the softer Debut Standard which is supposed to be comparable to the Freestyle stiffness rating, but we shall see.  Just my observations.

[Query]

Good to know about ballet shoes and pointe shoes, let's buy 2!

Wikipedia says pointe shoes only last 10-20 hours on the floor, so I assume many serious dancers buy more than two pair at once. I gather not all ballet is en pointe, but I can see how the costs could build up, even though they cost less than skates per pair.

I'm glad good figure skates last longer.

BTW, when I create documents, I like simple fonts like Ariel, Ariel Black, and Consolas, because I find them easy to read, and it is easy to distinguish between similar glyphs like 0 and O, 1 and l, and 2 and Z, in all of those. But skate typography wouldn't stop me if I wanted the skates: most of us don't notice it much if at all when we watch a skating performance. I have no trouble reading the logo on the Debut boots. But... many kids now don't learn script in school. Could that make any script font in advertising media counterproductive?

[tothepointe]

? Two posters have indicated that they have already purchased the Debuts.

I've been skating in them since early August but with the original LCF sole since that's what it was offering at first. I am perfectly happy in them though I wish the slightly lighter rating had been available when I got them since they might be a little stiff for me.

Previously I'd broken down 2 Riedells in a year. The 229 and the 910LS so I'm surprised how stiff these still feel after nearly 5 months.

I will say this. The Debut is at about the price point where you really don't have to many options and you probably don't spend much time agonizing over which skates to get. You either get Jacksons or Riedells and many people probably still want the boot/blade package like the Freestyle/Competitor offered.