Help with tongue on new boots.

[DressmakingMomma]

So after several trips to the shop with heat molds and punches, DD's new boots are starting to feel tolerable. She still has lots of basic breaking in to do, but at least they aren't producing tears at the end of a skating session.

The last major irritation other then general stiffness, is the tongue, which is digging in at the edges all along her ankle and top of foot. I cut a long strip of sticky backed moleskin, clipped along the edge so it would curve (like you do with sewing) and then wrapped it around the edge of the tongue. It only sort of worked because after one skate it pushed off the edges in some places. Moleskin tends to be our go-to for padding irritating areas but replacing it after every skate is going to be expensive and a total pain. Anybody have any suggestions? Help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[Jenna]

Do you have the Bunga gel sleeves?  That's my go to for top of boot and tongue cutting  into my ankles.

https://www.bungapads.com/bunga-ankle-sleeve-as.html#/product/218

You could also put sports tape or that foam pre-wrap that goes under it around the ankles where it cuts in at.  It's not as much cushion, but it may be enough.

[FigureSpins]

A skater with lace bite attached the moleskin to her knee-highs instead of the skates.  She said it worked better and didn't wrinkle. 
I didn't ask about laundering, but I guess you could just make up a few pairs and toss them instead of washing.

I had a pair of skates that cut into my calf at the top.  The boots had been rebuilt and some of the glue had seeped out and was abrasing my skin.  A suede shoe brush took off the glue and softened the edge, solving the problem.

[fsk8r]

I've got one pair of boots where the edges dig and rub at my skin (to the point where I start bleeding). I just wear gel ankle sleeves over my tights(silipos do a 20cm one which I chop in half) and this prevents the rubbing. Does exactly the same thing as the moleskin but you won't have to worry about attaching them to the boots.

[Query]

I've NOT tried this. But I would be tempted to feather the edges of the tongue. I.E., to round off the edges a little bit, with something like sandpaper.

I hope you find a good solution.

[DressmakingMomma]

Gel sleeves seem like a natural answer, except DD HATES them. We've tried a couple of different times for other reasons and she just can't stand the feeling so those are out.

It hasn't chaffed or blistered her skin, more like the tongue is stiff and curves in such a way, especially at the ankle, where it pushes down onto her foot. Today I removed the crinkled up moleskin, put down a fresh layer of moleskin and then went over that with wider sports tape. She said it was 'okay'.

The whole boot is really stiff and I think she may need to just get some hours in on them. I'm hoping the tongue softens up as well and that takes care of the problem. Once our skate tech is in town, I'll have him look and see if he has any ideas. I'm not opposed to sanding down the tongue, if he thinks it'll help.

[Christy]

Is she wearing the gel sleeves directly against her skin? I do that but a friend wears them over (thin) socks and seems happy with that option. Maybe that would work? or wearing them inside out so to speak?

[ChristyRN]

When the tongues on my old skates were wearing out, I got an elastic sleeve that had a gel pad on one side. Once I put it on the front of my foot/lower leg, it padded enough to not feel the pressure. Maybe it would work?

[rd350]

If you have a good fitter they should be able to soften the tongue to some degree.

[tstop4me]

(a)  Since these are new boots, I wouldn't do any modifications that could void the warranty.  Check with your skate tech.

(b)  Gel sleeves really are the way to go.  They work most effectively when the gel is placed against the skin.  But they do feel cold and clammy for the first minute or so.  Does your daughter object to wearing them over tights or socks?  If she mainly objects to the gel, how about cutting off the tops of socks and hemming them to make fabric sleeves?

(c)  Another alternative is to place a buffer pad between the tongue and foot/ankle.  There are commercial "lace-bite" pads available, but they might not be the right size or shape.  You can simply get a sheet of soft foam, ~1/8 inch thick, and cut out two rectangular buffer pads, one for each boot.  Cut them large enough that the edges of the tongue rest against the pad, not against the foot/ankle.  If you want even more cushioning, cover both sides of the pad with moleskin, which also protects the foam from abrasion.

I made thicker buffer pads when the sponge on my tongues started to get too squished down.   I didn't want to spend $$ getting the sponges replaced.  For durable buffer pads, I recommend Poron foam sheet, ultra soft (also called very soft) firmness.  They are fabricated with a smooth skin on both sides, to which moleskin adheres well.  By the way, if you use a lot of moleskin, buy the Curad, instead of Dr. Scholls.  Curad is not as easy to find, but available on Amazon.  You can get a 9 inch X 4 yard roll for ~$15.  Available in latex or latex-free formulations.  That's a lot cheaper than Dr. Scholls (~$5 for a 4-5/8 inch X 24 inch roll).  The Curad is almost as good:  Dr. Scholls has a slightly plusher nap and a slightly stronger adhesive, but not by much.

[Query]

Are you applying the moleskin and tape to the boot, or to her foot?

It is possible that repeatedly applying it to the foot, and removing it, would irritate the skin. And leaving it on long-term would prevent the skin pores from getting washed clean, and might be unhealthy too. So I like to apply things to the boot, not the foot. Though, depending on what type of lining your boot has, things may not stick well to the lining.

What doesn't doesn't she like about using gel pads? Maybe it is something that can be solved.

I buy my moleskin cheap from the dollar store.

Another thing, which may or may not be a factor. Perhaps it is the fact that the skin is pushed in at the sharp edges that bothers her. Adding moleskin and tape, effectively thickens the tongue there, and may push the skin in more than the tongue did itself. Feathering (sanding away) the sharp edges where it touches the skin removes the excess pressure altogether, and spreads the tongue pressure over a larger area. But, yeah, it is a change to the boot, so may void the warranty, if there is one.

[cittiecat]

So there have been a lot of good suggestions here but I'm going to add a few suggestions.

Gel Sleeve alternative placement: So since you seem to already have gel sleeves, you can just leave it flat (gel pressing gel) and put it in the front of the boot where she has the problem. This is super padding and it may help with the issue she has with gel sleeves. Also I prefer to wear my sleeves over my socks (trouser socks or condor knee highs depending on what clean).

Yoga Mat: So somewhere on here (I can't remember by who) it was recommended to cut pads from a cheap yoga mat (from five below or somewhere like that). This would give you a lot of material to try different shapes and sizes and thicknesses (double up) to solve the problem.

Mole Skin: You could use electrical tape (white) or skate tape to tape down the edges of the mole skin.

Hope this helps, I know it can be a pain in the bum when your skates aren't comfortable.

[DressmakingMomma]

The moleskin is lining the edges of the tongue and then I taped over that with medical tape, not on her skin. Skate tape would probably hold better. I am not opposed to sanding down the edges of the tongue, but I will wait till we see our regular fitter before attempting any permanent fixes.

It isn't bad enough to cut into her skin, I think it is just hitting her foot wrong and she feels like the edges of the tongue are pushing inward instead of wrapping around her ankle and foot. I don't like the Jackson tongue - it has lots of padding in the center, but is super stiff and structured and then practically no padding at the edges - compared to the Harlick tongue covered in rubber all the way to the edges with the option for lambswool in the centers. Those were much more comfortable.

Once she is done growing, we are definitely going back to Harlick, I just so dislike their long wait times (plus they are twice as much). Not feeling fantastic about these boots and they are only a couple of weeks old. Maybe once she has them broken in...

[DressmakingMomma]

Oh, and thanks  for the idea about the gel sleeves, that is brilliant - lay them flat. I really wish she didn't dislike the way they felt, I feel like the whole process of breaking in the boots would be easier if she could wear them.

[DressmakingMomma]

Thought I would update about the tongue of DD's boots for anybody else who might have a similar issue. We were able to see the technical rep of Jackson and he took a pair of scissors and cut right through all the layers to trim off about a 1/4" from either side of the tongue. We then sanded the edges smooth and it worked! No more tongue trouble.

Now to fix the slipping heel because they aren't narrow enough...

[ChristyRN]

Now to fix the slipping heel because they aren't narrow enough...

Heat mold with a tight heel squeeze by the fitter (and helper) fixed that for me.

[Query]

So great that the tech rep helped you with the tongue!

Now to fix the slipping heel because they aren't narrow enough...

If the bottom of her heel is too narrow for the boot, a heat mold won't completely fix the bottom - though if the rest of the heel is made snug enough it would help. Making a new insole that snugs everything up probably will.

I assume that she is old enough, senstive enough, and self-aware enough to be able to feel places the boot fits her foot loose and tight, and places where she needs more or less support.

1. Do the heat mold. It may not be perfect, but it will almost certainly help.
2. Buy material for a new insole.  I like to use closed cell carpet foam, because it is nice and warm, though an open cell caroet foam might be better if her feet tend to be hot and sweaty inside the boot. Buy extra, so so you can do this again a couple times, if everything doesn't come out perfect. Carpet foam is cheap, and it sounds like you/she cares a lot. People have used other types of foam, like upholstery foam and craft foam. I figure carpet foam is reasonably skin safe, but still has anti-mold and antibacterial chemicals.
3. Mark the line on the insole that the insole bends upwards while inside the boot (near the ball of the foot).
4. Have her figure out any places where she wants extra support (e.g., if the arch of her foot is higher than the arch of the boot with the insole in it, or if the current fit causes that side of the foot to bear more weight than the other), or less support (e.g., if the arch of her foot is lower, or that side bears less weight).
5. Remove the insole.
6. Trace the insole outline onto the material for a new insole.
7. Trace her foot inside that material. Position the foot so the ball of her foot really is on the line from step 3, because that is where human feet are able to bend without pain and inflammation. In many respects, that is the most important part of a perfect fit. Side-to-side, position her foot so it is centered within the outline.
8. Cut the material. You more or less want to match the outline of the old insole. BUT, in places where the old insole is wider or longer (but not along side of or in front of the toes, because you want extra space there), leave a little extra material (maybe about the amount by which it is too wide or long? Or a little more, to be safe, and you will trim it for comfort later). Once put in the boot, that extra material will come up alongside or behind the foot, and make it perfectly snug, near the bottom.
9. Put the new insole in the boot.
10. Put the foot in the boot. Remember to push down very firmly on the heel, even to pound a bit on the back, so the heel goes all the way down. People whose heels are not the narrowest part of the foot, she may have to do this every time she puts on the boot - though if her heel is narrower than the rest of the foot, she may not need to do it.
11. The carpet foam will be thicker than the original insole, so the foot will be much too tight.
12. Cut the underside of the foam in places with a scissors to make the fit perfect. You more or less want to duplicate the thickness of the original insole, but leave it thickest where she wants more support, thinest where she wants less, as per step 4. You don't need to match what she felt in step 4 exactly - you can make it even better now that she can feel the improved fit. Remember that you probably don't want a snug fit along-side or or front of the toes! - for the most part, that is bad for feet.
13. Put the foot in again. Cut to adjust again, and iterate until the fit is completely perfect.
14. If everything wasn't perfect, and you cut too much somewhere, start over with a new piece of foam, and try again.
15. If there are other places on the foot with less pressure than others, add moleskin to the side of the boot there.

As long as the boot wasn't too tight anywhere (or can be made properly snug by cutting the insole, or stretching the boot), you can use this technique to make almost any closed shoe or boot fit perfectly. I think they should teach it to everyone.

I hope that was all clear.

[DressmakingMomma]

We have tried squeezing the heels three times now, no luck.

I like the idea of carpet foam, that is nice and dense, comes in different thicknesses, and can be easily bought at a local store. Would never have thought of that - brilliant!

We have the sole of her foot pretty comfy with a combination of cork wedge and layers of insole and the very back of the heel seems narrow enough. I don't want to mess with the insole, as her pronation is corrected and she is well balanced in the skate. Where she feels the most movement is at the insides of her heels, from behind her arch and under her ankle bones back to before her heel starts curving to the center back - does that make sense? I think that part of the boot just has too much volume for her foot and so maybe that is why she feels unsupported and can't get her heel seated. When she finishes skating, that part of her foot is very red and irritated, and she says she can feel her heel sliding side to side in the boot when she is trying to skate, making everything difficult and frustrating.

I am thinking about taking her boots to a place called Mount Clares in Chicago. They are a leather repair shop that I hear skaters have luck with in having boots relined or padding added. What I might do with the carpet foam is temporarily add it in, play with the location and thickness, then take the boots to Mount Clares to have them permanently add padding in the places she needs it. I am thinking of having the tongue padded out as well, maybe to help better seat everything down and I love that I can try that out with the carpet padding.

Thank you for the idea, Query! I wandered around the fabric store a couple of days ago, but all their foam isn't dense enough to do anything. I'll be off to Menard's soon!

[riley876]

I prefer cork for stuff like insoles that shouldn't be compressible.  It's relatively easy to work and it's very light.   It also feels great underfoot.    Cork floor tiles if you need thick stuff,  cork gasket material from better auto shops if you need thinner stuff.

[Query]

How do you two use cork?

I know a lot of ski stores have used cork inside ski boots. AFAICT, the idea is to heat the cork to the point that the cork is soft, place it in the boot, then put in the foot. The cork molds to the foot, in such a way that there is approximately equal pressure on different parts of the cork.

Is that the way you are using cork inside your skates?

[DressmakingMomma]

We start with 3/16" of cork shaped like the heel and then sand down on the outside half to roll the foot out and correct pronation. One is steeper then the other, since she pronates more on one foot. We bring sandpaper to the rink and then I sand a bit, she tries it, sand a bit more, etc. until we get them feeling perfect. DD is pretty sensitive about her whole body, so we have discovered that if she is rolling in too much, her hips hurt while skating but if she is rolling too far to the outside then her knees hurt. There seems to be a sweet spot on each foot, the cork works really well, and doesn't compress so once we have them right they seem to last until the next pair of skates.

[riley876]

How do you two use cork?

I laminate multiple cork floor tiles, using a contact glue (F2), then use a bench mounted belt sander to shape it to suit.   Which typically involves turning it into more or less a wedge (high at rear inside heel, low at pinky toe) .   I do have some fairly radical requirements which means I need over 16mm (5/8") of thickness at some points.   Only cork is both light enough and solid enough for this amount of material.   Balsa would probably work too, except that it's not flexible enough to actually get it in the boot.

I have also used cork on inline slalom boots to narrow up the heel, i.e. by placing in between the shell and the liner.  Though there's probably no reason thin cork couldn't be glued directly into the inside of the liner itself, on any boots with integrated liners.

[Query]

Cool!