Powered skate sharpeners for home use

[tstop4me]

I've been using the Pro-Filer hand sharpener, and am not happy with its limitations.  I'm considering a small powered unit for home use.  Two tempting ones are the Wissota (www.wissota.com/) and the EZ-Sharp (www.e-zsharp.com/).  Anyone have direct experience with these, or similar units?  I'd appreciate any comments concerning ease of use, performance, reliability, maintenance, and support.  Thanks. 

[fsk8r]

This one looks easier to me.
I've just not worked out where I've got space to actually put any machine, otherwise I would get one and save myself the 3hour round trip (minus time waiting for the boots to be sharpened).

[tstop4me]

This one looks easier to me.
I've just not worked out where I've got space to actually put any machine, otherwise I would get one and save myself the 3hour round trip (minus time waiting for the boots to be sharpened).

Hi.  Which one are you referring to?  Thanks.

[fsk8r]

Hi.  Which one are you referring to?  Thanks.

Any of them because you don't have to worry about applying the pressure to the grinding wheel yourself. It's all controlled by the machine.
The closed boxes are aimed at the "home" market. The bigger ones are for pro shops.

[tstop4me]

Any of them because you don't have to worry about applying the pressure to the grinding wheel yourself. It's all controlled by the machine.
The closed boxes are aimed at the "home" market. The bigger ones are for pro shops.

You've got these machines confused with others I think.  Pressure of the blade against the grinding wheel and feeding the blade against the grinding wheel (to control the profile) are entirely manually controlled.  The grinding wheel is a disc; the plane of the disc is parallel to a flat bed.  The blade is clamped to a skate holder that sits on the flat bed and that holds the blade parallel to the flat bed.  The skate holder is adjusted such that the center line of the blade (between the inside and outside edges) is aligned with the center line of the edge of the grinding wheel.  The edge of the grinding wheel is dressed with a diamond dresser to form the desired radius of hollow.  You then move the skate holder along the flat bed to push the edge of the blade against the edge of the grinding wheel to control the pressure and to move the blade longitudinally against the grinding wheel to control the profile.  Radius of hollow and centering of the blade with respect to the grinding wheel are automatically controlled, but pressure and profile are manually controlled.

You need to practice on old blades to develop the right "touch".

[fsk8r]

You've got these machines confused with others I think.  Pressure of the blade against the grinding wheel and feeding the blade against the grinding wheel (to control the profile) are entirely manually controlled.  The grinding wheel is a disc; the plane of the disc is parallel to a flat bed.  The blade is clamped to a skate holder that sits on the flat bed and that holds the blade parallel to the flat bed.  The skate holder is adjusted such that the center line of the blade (between the inside and outside edges) is aligned with the center line of the edge of the grinding wheel.  The edge of the grinding wheel is dressed with a diamond dresser to form the desired radius of hollow.  You then move the skate holder along the flat bed to push the edge of the blade against the edge of the grinding wheel to control the pressure and to move the blade longitudinally against the grinding wheel to control the profile.  Radius of hollow and centering of the blade with respect to the grinding wheel are automatically controlled, but pressure and profile are manually controlled.

You need to practice on old blades to develop the right "touch".

http://www.prosharp.eu/machines

Sorry, I'd thought I'd added the link before. This is the other types of machines I was referring to. Being gravity controlled you don't need to develop the right "touch".
And are better aimed therefore at the home market.

Next time I will double check that I've pasted the link before talking about something!

[tstop4me]

http://www.prosharp.eu/machines

Sorry, I'd thought I'd added the link before. This is the other types of machines I was referring to. Being gravity controlled you don't need to develop the right "touch".
And are better aimed therefore at the home market.

Next time I will double check that I've pasted the link before talking about something!

Ah, I thought something was amiss with your first post.  Anyway, do you have direct experience with these machines?  There are older generation machines that are also gravity fed.  The reviews on them were terrible:  too much metal removed, and rockers flattened (particularly a problem with figure skates).  Did a Google search and couldn't find a review on how well the Prosharps (particularly the low end units) work on figure skates.

[fsk8r]

Ah, I thought something was amiss with your first post.  Anyway, do you have direct experience with these machines?  There are older generation machines that are also gravity fed.  The reviews on them were terrible:  too much metal removed, and rockers flattened (particularly a problem with figure skates).  Did a Google search and couldn't find a review on how well the Prosharps (particularly the low end units) work on figure skates.

My skates are generally sharpened on the high end pro unit. I'm perfectly happy with the results and quite like the fact that it's a lot more predictable than a human (the rink sharpener travels to the rink once every 6 weeks and sharpens everyones boots in one day - he's never going to take much care of your boots when they're one of hundreds he's doing that day).

I've not noticed any rocker flattening and as my dance blades are now 7 years old and still have life left in them, I don't think they're taking too much metal off.
But no experience on the lower end machines which seem to be aimed more towards the "home" market.

[Query]

What do you feel the Pro-filers can't do? I love them.

My only problem with them has been that they are too slow at making major changes, because the coarse stone isn't coarse enough. But for that I can hire a good sharpener. I've also done it by hand, using home-made  tools - but that was a lot of work. Or you could buy a coarser cylindrical sharpening stone over the Internet - I never bothered to do that, because the home made tools did what I needed.

I  tried an old Blademaster pro unit for a few days. Not enough time to get good at it. They have a big learning curve, because metal comes off so fast. Also, the blade/skate holder is very important. You need a holder that lets you make small changes in a very controlled manner - screw mounts that just slide are hard to control.

Hockey sharpening units may not work, because hockey blades are thinner. And if you use Matrix or Paramount blades, you may need a blade holder that works with them. Likewise speed skating sharpening hardware is very different.

Are you trying to go pro, so you need the speed of a  powered sharpener?

There seems to be a consensus that wheels that turn across the blade can't produce a very symmetrical edge. For the symmetric edge, you need a wheel that turns along the blade - though that means you need a diamond dresser to shape the wheel ROH.

[level_edges]

I purchased a Blackstone X01. I chose it over the Wissota machine mainly due to the size of the wheel (Blackstone has a 4"/100 grit wheel and the Wissota has a 7"/80 grit wheel). This is the first and only sharpener I've had personal experience with although I've seen the Incredible Edger in action during sharpenings with local skate techs. I only wanted to spend about ~$1000 vs. $4000 for the Incredible Edger.

Differences:

1. Wheel dressing: The X01 dresses the wheel by using spinners that are cut to a specific radius. This means that in order to change your hollow, you'll need to purchase additional spinners. The Wissota dresses the wheel with a traditional diamond wheel dresser. The plus side of using a spinner is that the ROH will always be consistent. I've heard from some skate techs that diamond dressers can move out of  alignment or the markings on the side can be inaccurate.

2. Table top: The X01 is a light weight machine and you'll need to clamp/screw it down to keep it from vibrating. The Wissota has a heavy duty steel tabletop and weighs a ton. There is no clamp point on the X01 on the back and as a result, I've had some issues with the machine vibrating. The tabletop on the Blackstone appears true and level.

3. Skate holder: I've struggled with the Blackstone as the bars of the holder are made of cast aluminum (soft metal) and the metal wears away when I use the screw clamps to clamp down the blades. The bars of the Wissota appear to be made of steel and I think this would be more durable. They appear to be similar in terms of operation and adjustment with 3 dials that level out the blade perpendicular to the wheel in 3 dimensions.

In general, the Blackstone is a decent machine and relatively easy to operate. I struggle with the holder the most. For myself, I believe skate sharpening requires some finesse and understanding of blade geometry but is a skill that can be acquired by technically minded people with fine motor skills. I've had reasonable success with the Blackstone.

Also of note, the SparX Hockey (http://www.sparxhockey.com/) has a machine that's supposed to be more or less fully automated. The wheels are tiny with an abrasive coating that comes in various radii. These are consumable components that will eventually wear out. I believe the ProSharp works using gravity to apply pressure of the blade against the wheel but heard that this may result in the ends of blades being rounded off. I don't know if that's actually true. I'm not sure if the SparX works the same way. The machine is marketed primarily for hockey but it's supposed to work for figure skates as well.

[tstop4me]

I purchased a Blackstone X01. I chose it over the Wissota machine mainly due to the size of the wheel (Blackstone has a 4"/100 grit wheel and the Wissota has a 7"/80 grit wheel). This is the first and only sharpener I've had personal experience with although I've seen the Incredible Edger in action during sharpenings with local skate techs. I only wanted to spend about ~$1000 vs. $4000 for the Incredible Edger.  .....

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of first-hand experience I'm looking for.  I'm also wanting to spend something in the $1000 range (maybe $2000 max if I'm convinced of superior advantages), which is why the Wissota caught my eye.  It looks like a substantial machine for the price.  My current skate tech uses the Incredible Edger.  It's a clever, compact, lightweight unit specifically designed for figure skates.  Unfortunately, the motor has relatively low torque.  It requires a very light pressure of the grinding wheel against the blade.  On the plus side, you are less likely to remove excess metal, flatten the rocker, and burn the steel.  On the minus side, the wheel tends to bounce a bit, leaving a somewhat rough finish:  it leaves marks similar to cross-grind marks, even though it's not a cross grinder.

The Sparx is new on the market and still listed for pre-sale order.  It'll be interesting if it does work on figure skates.  But I don't wish to be a guinea pig.  If the low-end Prosharp works as well as the commercial grade one attested to by fsk8r, it would also be a good choice.  The price is higher than I would like to pay, but if the auto feed actually works, that's a big plus.  I believe the main challenge especially for figure skates is that the pressure and the longitudinal feed speed needs to vary as a function of the position along the blade.  That's where the skill of the operator comes into play for manual sharpening.  I don't know whether low-end auto feed systems do that.

Did you look at the EZ-Sharp?  It's similar to the Wissota, but more expensive.  The main advantage it touts appears to be a skate holder that's easier to setup.

[tstop4me]

What do you feel the Pro-filers can't do? I love them.

My only problem with them has been that they are too slow at making major changes, because the coarse stone isn't coarse enough. But for that I can hire a good sharpener. I've also done it by hand, using home-made  tools - but that was a lot of work. Or you could buy a coarser cylindrical sharpening stone over the Internet - I never bothered to do that, because the home made tools did what I needed.

I don't plan to be a pro sharpener.  But I would like to be able to vary the ROH readily.  The main problem I've had with the Pro-Filer, though, is that it requires the blade to have an extremely uniform thickness along the length of the blade, and that requirement is not always met.  The Pro-Filer has a fixed-gap guide that slides along the sides of the blade.  Optimally, the clearance between the guide and the blade should probably be 2 - 4 mils (1 mil = .001 inch).  That's a fairly tight tolerance.  If the clearance is too small, the unit will snag and bind; if the clearance is too large, the ROH will be increased and will vary, and the edges will be uneven.  Clearance is controlled by applying one or more layers of tape to the sides of the blade.  On my blades, the thickness near the pick and near the heel is slightly greater than near the middle [it's a Coronation Ace blade with a nominally parallel geometry; I believe (but don't know for sure) that much of the thickness variation arises from thickness variation in the plating].  The masking tape supplied by Pro-Filer is too thick, so I use Scotch magic tape (as recommended on Bill S's website), which is not only thinner, but also smoother, than masking tape.  Even the Scotch tape is too thick for use near the pick and heel though; so I need to leave those regions untaped.  As a result, it's difficult achieving a smooth stroke near those regions.  Also, the edge of the tape in the transition regions will occasionally lift and tear.  Furthermore, on one blade, one layer of tape on each side of the blade provides about the proper clearance for most of the blade.  On the other blade, however, one layer of tape is not quite sufficient, but two layers of tape is too much, so I have to settle for one layer and the excess clearance.

On top of all that ... office-grade tape was never meant to be a precise material.   The occasional seam and bump will cause the Pro-Filer to snag and bind, so I need to check for seams and bumps and retape as needed.  I haven't checked whether there is a thinner and higher-grade tape available (and if so, whether it's available for retail sales to individuals).

If I still had access to a machine shop, I would polish the blades to a uniform and appropriate thickness; but I don't anymore.  So I'm looking for a unit that will work with existing blade tolerances. (Edited for clarification.)

[level_edges]

Thanks! This is exactly the kind of first-hand experience I'm looking for.  I'm also wanting to spend something in the $1000 range (maybe $2000 max if I'm convinced of superior advantages), which is why the Wissota caught my eye.  It looks like a substantial machine for the price.  My current skate tech uses the Incredible Edger.  It's a clever, compact, lightweight unit specifically designed for figure skates.  Unfortunately, the motor has relatively low torque.  It requires a very light pressure of the grinding wheel against the blade.  On the plus side, you are less likely to remove excess metal, flatten the rocker, and burn the steel.  On the minus side, the wheel tends to bounce a bit, leaving a somewhat rough finish:  it leaves marks similar to cross-grind marks, even though it's not a cross grinder.

Did you look at the EZ-Sharp?  It's similar to the Wissota, but more expensive.  The main advantage it touts appears to be a skate holder that's easier to setup.

I hadn't considered the EZ-Sharp. When I look at the holder, it looks like it has only one adjustment dial which controls the tilt of the holder. I prefer 3 dials to ensure that the length of the blades is parallel with the wheel. Also the clamp is designed for hockey skates which holds the skates at two points. I believe the reason why figure skate holders typically have bars is to hold the blades by the stanchions which may be the only true level surfaces on the blades (i.e. tapered blades such as Gold Seals, Gold Stars). Since you have Coronation Aces which are supposed to be parallel, this may not be such a major issue. I also prefer the bars to straighten out the blade for slight bends.

The EZ Sharp machine looks similar to the Wissota to me and even have similar motors. Given those two options and without researching the EZ Sharp in depth, I would opt for the Wissota for the weight of the tabletop. I don't see the advantage of the EZ Sharp especially with the increase in price.

As for the cross grinding appearance from the Incredible Edger, I was having similar issues with the Blackstone in the beginning for two reasons: the machine was vibrating too much and my touch was too light. After I clamped down the machine on all sides and developed a better and firmer touch, I was able to eliminate the bounce off the machine and achieved a smooth "micron" finish.

[tstop4me]

I hadn't considered the EZ-Sharp. When I look at the holder, it looks like it has only one adjustment dial which controls the tilt of the holder. I prefer 3 dials to ensure that the length of the blades is parallel with the wheel. Also the clamp is designed for hockey skates which holds the skates at two points. I believe the reason why figure skate holders typically have bars is to hold the blades by the stanchions which may be the only true level surfaces on the blades (i.e. tapered blades such as Gold Seals, Gold Stars). Since you have Coronation Aces which are supposed to be parallel, this may not be such a major issue. I also prefer the bars to straighten out the blade for slight bends.

The EZ Sharp machine looks similar to the Wissota to me and even have similar motors. Given those two options and without researching the EZ Sharp in depth, I would opt for the Wissota for the weight of the tabletop. I don't see the advantage of the EZ Sharp especially with the increase in price.

As for the cross grinding appearance from the Incredible Edger, I was having similar issues with the Blackstone in the beginning for two reasons: the machine was vibrating too much and my touch was too light. After I clamped down the machine on all sides and developed a better and firmer touch, I was able to eliminate the bounce off the machine and achieved a smooth "micron" finish.

Hey, again many thanks!  I'm glad to you were able to eventually get good results with the small Blackstone unit.

[beginner skater]

If I still had access to a machine shop, I would polish the blades to a uniform and appropriate thickness; but I don't anymore.  So I'm looking for a unit that will work with blade variations.

tstop4me, for a $1000,  or less, couldnt you get your blades machined flat? Or do you need a new toy/serious piece of kit?

[tstop4me]

tstop4me, for a $1000,  or less, couldnt you get your blades machined flat? Or do you need a new toy/serious piece of kit?

Yes, that would be an option if we're talking about only one set of blades.  But unless I luck out whenever I change blades, I would have to go through it again each time. In which case, I'd rather spend the money on a permanent, better, and more versatile solution.

Edit to add:  Many moons ago, I did precision design work and dealt with machine shops.  Finding a shop that (a) has the required capabilities and (b) is willing to accept a one-off job is difficult.  Also, I'm fairly certain that the finishing operation would cost more than the price of my blades.  And if you finished a new blade, you would likely void the warranty.

[Query]

One problem with most of the powered sharpening tools, unless you get a very expensive blade holder that clamps the blade straight: even a little blade warp creates very assymetric edges. The center of the blade has one edge higher, the ends have the other edge higher. Maybe you can improvise a blade holder with a vice and long pieces of straight material. Because Pro-Filer and similar tools are short, and follow the blade, it isn't as big a problem.

But I would like to be able to vary the ROH readily.

Of course you realize that varying ROH takes off a lot of metal, reducing blade lifetime. But yeah, that's very slow on Pro-filer, you have to buy a new kit for each ROH, and such major changes wear out your stones a lot.

You can achieve it by buying cylindrical sharpening stones of coarser grit. Not from Edge Specialties - they don't sell them. You have to go looking on the Internet. If I remember right, Pro-Filer stones are about 3" long, but I've used shorter stones (e.g., 2") from other sources a little bit in the Pro-Filer - they work fine.

Also, the old Berghman sharpeners, available cheap on eBay, came with coarser stones - though the oldest were pretty crumbly. In other respects they were better designed than the Pro-Filer, in that the gap is adjustable, though not as pretty. They were also a little more controllable - I didn't feel I had to tape the toe picks to avoid hitting them. But Berghmans only came with .5" ROH.

The main problem I've had with the Pro-Filer, though, is that it requires the blade to have an extremely uniform thickness along the length of the blade, and that requirement is not always met.

I always thought the tape technique, which the directions which came with my Pro-Filer advocated, was pretty clumsy.

Confession: All of my blades have been uniform enough that it wasn't a problem. Also, by flipping the stone around every few strokes, I can compensate for a gap that is slightly too large, or imperfectly centered. In some cases, I have enlarged the gap a little, BTW - for Matrix blades, if I remember right. In some cases, when I didn't center things right,

How I make simple home-made sharpening tools: I glue (dollar store) sandpaper onto dowel rods of the appropriate diameter. If I was really picky about ROH, I would have sanded the rods down a bit to compensate for the width of the sandpaper. You can even get between-standard-sizes ROH, and can picky different sandpaper grits. In principle 2 or 3 inches long is about right, but for a lightweight coat pocket took, I've sometimes used 0.5 to 0.75 inches. I'm not good enough at machine-shop type work to imitate the Pro-Filer, or the rubber hockey sharpener equivalents (which have gaps that are too thin for figure blades). So I take a sheet of leather or similar material (visit a fabric shop). I wrap the sheet around the stone, and pinch it around the sides of the blade. This is much harder to center on the blade than the Pro-Filer. It took me a fair number of hours of practice. The Pro-Filer and Berghman are faster for me to use, because I don't need to be as careful. But it is wonderful to have an emergency tool that fits in my coat pocket, and only weighs a few grams.

If your plating is not uniform, it may also not be the same thickness on both sides of the blade, which may mean that you are likely to create non-uniformly symmetric edges on almost any sharpening device. (Balance a Popsicle stick across the blade to check squareness. Or use a fancier mini-square, such as those from Edge Specialties.) So you will have to adjust pressures on different parts of the blade, by hand, to make it be symmetric.

I corresponded for a while with someone who used a smaller ROH stone than the ROH he wanted. He hand shaped the ROH. I tried it for a couple days. I lack the manual dexterity to do a good job. He worked in the trades, as a steel worker (he was also playing with making his own blades, and wasn't afraid of working at the temperatures needed to temper and harden steel), so I guess he was very good with his hands. If you are too, maybe you can do it that way...

BTW, in many places, you can join a community center machine shop fairly cheap. There are also "Maker" clubs, where you might meet someone with a milling machine. But another issue might be that if you mill it, you might remove the plating, to the point that it can rust.

[riley876]

I'm still using my "cross grinder" belt sander.

http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=6386

Since changed to using slightly smaller 688 bearings (16mm OD) on the sharp end, and now using a very fine 320 grit belt.   Even though 16mm+2mm of belt is 18mm = 9 mm radius = <3/8",  I'm actually getting about 7/16" ROH out of this rig.   Takes a steady hand to get a clean grind, but even a grind with some minor stop/starts seems skatable.  And I finish it off with a "skate mate" hand sharpener, which takes the bulk of the cross ginding marks out.

The cross grinding (with the fine belt) really doesn't seem to be a problem in practice.   Can't say I can notice any difference in glide between this using this method and a professional job.