Boot and Sole Separating!

[sk8great]

I love how Jackson boots fit me, but this has been the second time that this happened to me. Previously on the marquis model and now on the freestyle model. I am on the bigger side and my coach has suggested that i get a higher level boot that has a thicker sole. However these freestyles are only 4 months old and the sole is starting to detach from the heel. It isn't that badly separated yet, but Im just extremely worried for my safety while skating. I am currenty working on all my singles and I am paranoid that one day, the sole would just completely detach whilst landing. I dont really want to buy new boots + blades, considering that these skates are only a few months old. What would be my best option at the moment? I have attached a photo for reference.

On the other hand, once I am ready to get new boots I've wanted to switch to another brand, but I dont exactly know which one to go for. I have have wide feet and i pronate. Whats my best bet?

PS. Am I completely overthinking all of this? 

[riley876]

Do you have the habit of holding onto the solid bit of the heel or the back of the blade whilst pulling the boot off?

Just asking because I ruined my first really nice set of street boots with that bad habit.  Tore the leather through at the point of attachment to the sole.

[sk8great]

Do you have the habit of holding onto the solid bit of the heel or the back of the blade whilst pulling the boot off?

Just asking because I ruined my first really nice set of street boots with that bad habit.  Tore the leather through at the point of attachment to the sole.

Nope, I usually grab my boot by the ankle when I take them off.

[Matsumoto]

I have the Jackson Premieres (going on 2 years now) and have not had this issue.  One thing you might take a look at:  if you take the insole out there should be some hefty screws going through the boot sole down into the heel.  Maybe those have backed out just a bit and could be tightened down to bring the heel back together with the boot.

[tstop4me]

Did you buy them from a local shop or online?  If you bought them from a local shop, I would bring them back there and have a skate tech inspect them.  If he concludes that you didn't abuse them somehow, he should contact Jackson.  I don't know what the warranty for the Freestyle model is.  I have the Elite Suede, and I believe the warranty was 6 mos (not sure though, and I don't have the papers handy).  Regardless of the warranty, 4 mos is a short time.  If it is a factory defect, manufacturers will sometimes repair or replace as a matter of "good will".  But often you need to be persistent and escalate high enough.  The problem, though, is repair or replacement will involve downtime for you.

If you bought them online, you'll probably need to contact Jackson yourself.

FWIW, the heel on the Elite Suede is screwed on with four screws (probably in addition to adhesive):  heads flush with the inside of the sole, bodies into the heel.  <<Edit to add:  Matsumoto posted while I was composing.>>

[tstop4me]

Another thought.  There are many posts and videos that recommend that you seat the heel of your foot snugly into the heel of your boot by kicking the heel of your blade against the floor.  Do you do that?  I've always thought it was terrible advice because it applies undue stress on the screw joints holding the blade onto the boot.  But I wonder if such action would also cause the heel to pull away.

[sk8great]

I have the Jackson Premieres (going on 2 years now) and have not had this issue.  One thing you might take a look at:  if you take the insole out there should be some hefty screws going through the boot sole down into the heel.  Maybe those have backed out just a bit and could be tightened down to bring the heel back together with the boot.

I'll take a look. Thank you!

[sk8great]

Did you buy them from a local shop or online?  If you bought them from a local shop, I would bring them back there and have a skate tech inspect them.  If he concludes that you didn't abuse them somehow, he should contact Jackson.  I don't know what the warranty for the Freestyle model is.  I have the Elite Suede, and I believe the warranty was 6 mos (not sure though, and I don't have the papers handy).  Regardless of the warranty, 4 mos is a short time.  If it is a factory defect, manufacturers will sometimes repair or replace as a matter of "good will".  But often you need to be persistent and escalate high enough.  The problem, though, is repair or replacement will involve downtime for you.

If you bought them online, you'll probably need to contact Jackson yourself.

FWIW, the heel on the Elite Suede is screwed on with four screws (probably in addition to adhesive):  heads flush with the inside of the sole, bodies into the heel.  <<Edit to add:  Matsumoto posted while I was composing.>>

Another thought.  There are many posts and videos that recommend that you seat the heel of your foot snugly into the heel of your boot by kicking the heel of your blade against the floor.  Do you do that?  I've always thought it was terrible advice because it applies undue stress on the screw joints holding the blade onto the boot.  But I wonder if such action would also cause the heel to pull away.

Bought them from my local pro shop. However, there aren't really good skate technicians in my country. However, I've already emailed Jackson to see what would be my best option. Regarding the kicking of the heel, I dont do it as I've thought of the same thing.

[Nate]

Bought them from my local pro shop. However, there aren't really good skate technicians in my country. However, I've already emailed Jackson to see what would be my best option. Regarding the kicking of the heel, I dont do it as I've thought of the same thing.

They will likely refer you back to the dealer. Jackson has never been a skate manufacturer who (in my experience) tends to take charge of these situations. I didn't find them all that pleasant to work with.

Apart from that, you likely need a stronger boot, or a boot that sets your heel in better. I had this issue in boots that were too soft and too stiff. You can be bending them too much, or they can be so stiff that the inability to bend the ankles well puts undue pressure where the skate upper attaches in the heel.

Additionally, if your heel isn't set right in the heel (due to sizing, too steep an incline of the foot bed/too high heel, etc.) Your heel may be trying to slip up and pulling there a lot. Usually you'd develop physical symptoms by four months, though. Heel bumps/pain/bursitis, sore ankles and Achilles, etc.

Pronation/suppination can also be an issue as it sometimes leave room for the heel to bang into the boot which can cause a lot of pulling.

Do you wear any orthotics in the skates (even OTC)?

If the coach recommended a stronger model and the fitter agrees, the issue can be chalked up to normal wear and tear and they aren't really responsible for the problem.

The knot time a dealer has taken back skates for me (and I've gone through total 9 boots in < 3years due to issues when you count returned pairs) is when the fit just wasn't right (too long/wide etc.). In that case, they took them back without question and ordered in the right size.

Kicking the heels when putting the skates on does not cause this.

Edit: Terrible auto correct on this phone. Sorry.

Also, the Jackson Elite Suede boots I got were the stiffest boots I've worn, ever. They are stiffer than the Elite Supreme leather skates that I had ordered in before them. They have more lateral stiffness than anything I've ever worn, and unless you are doing tons of doubles and some triples make sure you try on a pair, hopefully on the ice before buying.

I did tons of doubles in mine. They still don't have a hint of a crease on them. I ended up moving to a different brand. The only boots I've had that I couldn't even began to break on. I usually get boots in the KT-3 and Report RF-2 Super range of stiffness, to give a base for comparison.

They also creak a bit when I attempt to bend in them, so they may be defective (the inserts for heat molding).

If you get Elite, get the leather boot. It's a bit less stiff. The Supreme is way more comfortable to wear though, assuming your feet fit Jackson boots.

[tstop4me]

Also, the Jackson Elite Suede boots I got were the stiffest boots I've worn, ever. They are stiffer than the Elite Supreme leather skates that I had ordered in before them. They have more lateral stiffness than anything I've ever worn, and unless you are doing tons of doubles and some triples make sure you try on a pair, hopefully on the ice before buying.

I did tons of doubles in mine. They still don't have a hint of a crease on them. I ended up moving to a different brand. The only boots I've had that I couldn't even began to break on. I usually get boots in the KT-3 and Report RF-2 Super range of stiffness, to give a base for comparison.

They also creak a bit when I attempt to bend in them, so they may be defective (the inserts for heat molding).

If you get Elite, get the leather boot. It's a bit less stiff. The Supreme is way more comfortable to wear though, assuming your feet fit Jackson boots.

Hi.  I know this is getting off topic from the original post, but I'd be interested in more details of your experiences with Jackson boots.  You've obviously have direct personal experience with the Elite Suede.  Are your comments on the Elite Smooth and Elite Supreme also based on direct experience with current models?

I don't know how indicative boot stiffness ratings are.  But Jackson rates the Elite Suede and the Elite Smooth both at 80.  There are four models of the Elite Supreme, ranging from 85 to 100.  So I'm surprised you found the Elite Suede to be stiffer.

I previously skated on the old Riedell Royal (I was only a one public session per weekend skater).  Late 2014, I finally had time to up my skating and take private lessons.  My Royals started falling apart, and I got the Elite Suede (the Elite Smooth wasn't introduced until sometime in 2015, and I was concerned that the Elite Supreme would be too stiff).  The main issue I had was getting used to the much higher heel pitch.  But, as for breaking them in, I had very few problems (in contrast, the old generation Riedell Gold Stars I wore a long time ago  were notorious for causing bloody ankles).  So I've been skating on them 5 - 7 hrs/wk, a little less than 1-1/2 yrs.  The most I do are half-jumps; I concentrate on edge work and spins.  No problems with deep knee bends.  No creases either.  But I attributed that to (a) the flex notches and (b) the suede (I'm assuming that surface artifacts do not show up on suede the way they do on smooth; but this is the only pair of suede I've ever had; I'd be interested in others' experiences with suede in respect to creases). 

I do agree with the high lateral stiffness.  My coach wants me to refine my back crossovers.  She keeps telling me to drop my ankle on the back foot.  That requires lateral flex.  A T-stop also requires lateral flex.  But I've read a number of articles and posts that applaud boots with high lateral stiffness, so I'm not sure whether that's a modern design trend geared towards optimization for jumps (the way that higher heel pitches are).

Anyway, I plan to stick with Jackson, since they fit my feet well.  I have medium width toes with narrow width heels, so Jackson is perfect for me (snug heel with roomy toe box).  I wasn't able to find a shop near me that had the high-end Jacksons on display, so I couldn't do a side-by-side comparison.  Have you actually skated on a version of the current Elite Supreme?  If so, which one, and how did it compare with the Elite Suede in lateral stiffness?

[Query]

Use glue!

As I understand it, Barge Cement is often used to make and repair leather shoes. Sold in many shoe repair shops.

Make sure you leave plenty of time for it to fully set before using the skates again. And apply it in a well ventilated area, wearing gloves and eye protection - it's an industrial grade glue.

I used a different product, Shoe Goo, to repair a sole that started to come off of a normal shoe, and also used it to fill stripped mounting holes, but I've heard good things about Barge.

[tstop4me]

Use glue!

As I understand it, Barge Cement is often used to make and repair leather shoes. Sold in many shoe repair shops.

Make sure you leave plenty of time for it to fully set before using the skates again. And apply it in a well ventilated area, wearing gloves and eye protection - it's an industrial grade glue.

I used a different product, Shoe Goo, to repair a sole that started to come off of a normal shoe, and also used it to fill stripped mounting holes, but I've heard good things about Barge.

Not sure that Barge Cement is a good choice for this repair.  Barge Cement is a contact adhesive.  Typically when you are gluing together two parts (call them Part A and Part B) with contact adhesive, you spread the adhesive on one exposed surface of Part A and on one exposed surface of Part B; the surfaces need to be dry and clean.  You then let the adhesive dry until tacky (solvent evaporates).  You then align the two adhesive-coated surfaces opposite each other, and squeeze the two surfaces together.  Depending on the strength of the joint needed, you may need to apply extra pressure (e.g., with a weight or a clamp) to squeeze the two surfaces tight until the adhesive bond achieves full strength.

In the OP's case, the boot and sole has started to separate, creating a crevice.  It will be difficult to use contact adhesive in the proper manner.   If you simply fill the crevice with contact adhesive, squeeze, and let dry, you likely won't get a good bond.

[nicklaszlo]

I would take them to a reputable shoe repair company.

I don't think it looks serious in the picture.  But it's hard to tell.   Also, it depends on how high you jump.  If you jump really high you probably should not be in freestyles (unless you're tiny).

[sk8great]

Thank you for all the helpful replies so far! My coach took a look at it awhile ago and didn't really see anything too serious. However, we got into the topic of possibly getting new boots and suggested for me to get the Jackson Elite Supremes Premieres. He has also suggested Harlick, Risport, or SP Teri. I mentioned Edea to him and he mentioned how I might have a hard time with it considering that I am flat footed, I pronate, and that it has a higher heel that might make time to adjust to. The only real dilemma I have is whether I should get the Supremes with brand new blades and sell the current freestyles I have. Can you guys help me decideeeee hehe

[tstop4me]

Thank you for all the helpful replies so far! My coach took a look at it awhile ago and didn't really see anything too serious. However, we got into the topic of possibly getting new boots and suggested for me to get the Jackson Elite Supremes. He has also suggested Harlick, Risport, or SP Teri. I mentioned Edea to him and he mentioned how I might have a hard time with it considering that I am flat footed, I pronate, and that it has a higher heel that might make time to adjust to. The only real dilemma I have is whether I should get the Supremes with brand new blades and sell the current freestyles I have. Surprisngly, the price of the boots here are lower than if I were to buy it when I get back to the States. Also, what blades would you guys suggest I get? Can you guys help me decideeeee hehe

You probably don't need to splurge on an expensive advanced freestyle blade such as the Wilson Gold Seal just yet. Consider an intermediate freestyle blade.  The classic choices are Wilson Coronation Ace or MK Professional.  A tempting alternative (which I'm considering for my next blade) is the Riedell Eclipse Aurora, which was introduced just last year.  Riedell bills it as a Coronation Ace clone ... but fabricated from 440C stainless steel, instead of carbon steel (used by Wilson and MK).  It costs only a little more (~$10 more currently, was ~$20 more last year) than the Coronation Ace and Professional.  But if in fact the stainless steel requires fewer sharpenings  (my skate tech tells me that's his experience so far with other models of stainless steel blades), then you recoup the extra cost in just one fewer sharpening.   So far, I haven't seen any reviews of it, and I don't know anyone who uses it.  But Riedell offers a 60 day return policy if you don't like it.  I'll probably go for it in another month or so.

Others can comment on other choices.  And, of course, ask your coach and skate tech (oops!  forgot you don't have a decent skate tech).

[skategeek]

You probably don't need to splurge on an expensive advanced freestyle blade such as the Wilson Gold Seal just yet. Consider an intermediate freestyle blade.  The classic choices are Wilson Coronation Ace or MK Professional.  A tempting alternative (which I'm considering for my next blade) is the Riedell Eclipse Aurora, which was introduced just last year.  Riedell bills it as a Coronation Ace clone ... but fabricated from 440C stainless steel, instead of carbon steel (used by Wilson and MK).  It costs only a little more (~$10 more currently, was ~$20 more last year) than the Coronation Ace and Professional.  But if in fact the stainless steel requires fewer sharpenings  (my skate tech tells me that's his experience so far with other models of stainless steel blades), then you recoup the extra cost in just one fewer sharpening.   So far, I haven't seen any reviews of it, and I don't know anyone who uses it.  But Riedell offers a 60 day return policy if you don't like it.  I'll probably go for it in another month or so.

Others can comment on other choices.  And, of course, ask your coach and skate tech (oops!  forgot you don't have a decent skate tech).

My skate tech also recommended the Eclipse when I discussed eventually moving up from my current blades (Ultima Mirage, stock blades that came with the Jackson Elle), for the same reasons. 

[Query]

Not sure that Barge Cement is a good choice for this repair.  Barge Cement is a contact adhesive...

Oops! Good Catch.

Whereas "Shoe Goo", the one I've actually used, is marketed as being able to "seal" things too.

Sorry.

I've used Shoe Goo to fill a skate boot hole that a mounting screw had stripped, and it seemed to work - though I barely jump. I don't actually know how strong it is, when it comes to serious freestyle jumps.

That type of problem might apply to normal shoe stores. They might have done sole repairs using Shoe Goo, or some other product, but the sheer forces a skate encounters would be much larger.

I think you did the right thing, contacting Jackson. If they have any useful advice, it is likely to be effective. Though they may just tell you to ship it back to them. (Depending on recency, they may even repair it for free, or for shipping cost.)

[kr1981]

Regarding your original post and photo, I actually had the exact same thing happen to my Jackson Premieres. I noticed it after I had them for about 6 or 7 months, though I'm not sure exactly when it started. I showed my coach, and like yours, she wasn't worried--because there's also screws holding everything together (and if you lift up the insole, you can see the 4 screws in the heel, which is reassuring, haha). I took some photos of it in March 2015 just in case a major defect occurred and the heel did separate from the boot, or something along those lines. I can honestly say, though, that comparing my boot right now to the photo I took on my phone over a year ago, and it really hasn't gotten any worse. If it has separated more, it's negligible (at least from what I can see).

I'm also working on single jumps--and do jump a lot--and I'm not exactly petite... so the good news is, I think your boot will hold up fine.

I'll be curious to hear what Jackson says. I didn't contact them about my boot, but I suspect it's a manufacturing defect, as I also noticed (months after I got them), that the right heel only has 3 layers of cork, where the left heel has 4. So, I do wonder if there's some kind of quality control issue. However, Jacksons are the most comfortable skates I've ever worn for my totally flat feet and huge bunions, so I'll stick with them!

[Theresa_H]

I believe Jackson has a 6 month warranty, so hopefully they'll do something for you.