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Author Topic: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE  (Read 1788 times)

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Offline irenar5

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Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« on: April 03, 2015, 03:42:33 PM »
Can someone please explain to me how Liza's 3Lutz in the Worlds short program can receive a GOE of -1 (one judge only, the rest mostly +2).  How more perfect can this jump be?   

https://youtu.be/AQmZj8q9l3Y?t=59


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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2015, 03:52:24 PM »
Flutzed
Yes I'm in with the 90's. I have a skating blog. http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/

Offline irenar5

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2015, 04:18:16 PM »
Quote
Flutzed

There was no flutzing. In fact, I can't recall that she ever got an edge call on the lutz.  Besides, if there was a question, at the very least there would be a call of "not clear edge", let alone "wrong edge". 

Offline riley876

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2015, 04:46:54 PM »
In SlowMo:



Offline karne

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2015, 04:43:05 AM »
Flutzed

Liza is the only lady in the world I would stake my life on never flutzing.

Looking at the other GOEs, I'd guess keystroke error. By the time they got to Liza the poor judges and tech panel had been at this thing for SIX HOURS. And that's with very minimal breaks. It wouldn't surprise me if a few fingers were frozen, and brains starting to feel numb from constantly concentrating.
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Offline icedancer

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2015, 12:33:10 PM »
Liza is the only lady in the world I would stake my life on never flutzing.

Looking at the other GOEs, I'd guess keystroke error. By the time they got to Liza the poor judges and tech panel had been at this thing for SIX HOURS. And that's with very minimal breaks. It wouldn't surprise me if a few fingers were frozen, and brains starting to feel numb from constantly concentrating.

I concur that it is probably an error - it is just one judge and the rest of their scores not out of line with the other judges.

Offline Query

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2015, 03:39:05 PM »
What a magnificent skater!

I'm no expert and can't say. But I suppose she could smile more.  :) If it were a low level test, they often say to hold an edge at least 2 seconds before and 3 seconds after a move - but I'm not sure that is an issue in high level comps. Maybe you need to keep your edges short to put in as many high scoring moves as she does.

I'm not sure I buy the typo error. Maybe it's just sour grapes, that someone's favorite skater can't do reliable enough triples to win. Or maybe the judge wasn't in a position to see the jump very well. They really spread the judges out, so it is hard to do it in a position that all the judges can clearly see.

They drop the lowest and highest scores, right? Was the -1 dropped, or was there another score at least as bad?


Offline amy1984

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2015, 04:18:26 PM »
Some people have different opinions on what is good.  If it was flutzed, the tech specialist would be the one responsible for saying so (in my understanding).  The individual judges don't make individual calls on that.  So error, different opinion, whatever.  I tried to see if it was marked as a flutz but couldn't find the mark details.

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2015, 05:18:45 PM »
Here is the protocol:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2015/wc2015_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

It was not an edge call - if you scroll down to Polina Edmunds you can see that she got an edge call for her filp (!) - there are no edge calls on the top skaters.

Maybe she does need to smile more.  A judge I know thought she had "the presentation skills of Tonya Harding" (and he knows of which he speaks as a PNW person and National Judge) -

I still contend it was a key stroke error. 

I don't think that the "two-seconds" is good for these high-level competitions as one might lose points in Skating Skills for "telegraphing" - her landings on her jumps - and especially the triple axel were, in my mind - outstanding!  And so confident.

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2015, 06:12:01 PM »
Sometimes the angle of where the judge is sitting in relation to the jump can have a huge impact in their opinion of the GOE - remember that the judges are NOT privy to the scores entered by others, so they have no idea if their score entered is going to match up with what everyone else saw.

Offline amy1984

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2015, 09:04:18 PM »
Sometimes the angle of where the judge is sitting in relation to the jump can have a huge impact in their opinion of the GOE - remember that the judges are NOT privy to the scores entered by others, so they have no idea if their score entered is going to match up with what everyone else saw.

This.  A hundred times.  Explains so much.

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2015, 09:07:32 PM »
Here are the GOE rules on page 13 for jumps:
http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU%20Communication%201861%20Singles%20Pairs%20Scale%20of%20Values.pdf

I don't buy the judge angle- they are usually in the middle of the rink, whereas the jump was at the end of the rink.  One foot to the left or the right (the seat of the next judge) will not change the viewing angle significantly.

Situations like this really call for explanations (judges can pick one from the above rules list).   I know, the highest and lowest scores are thrown out as outliers, but this kind of unexplainably subjective judging is hurting figure skating as a sport. 

Offline amy1984

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2015, 09:13:25 PM »
Here is the protocol:

It was not an edge call - if you scroll down to Polina Edmunds you can see that she got an edge call for her filp (!) - there are no edge calls on the top skaters.


Is that what the (!) means?  I see an (e) given to Brooklee Han down at # 35.  Maybe the different symbol because it was a botched flip?  Either way, I was surprised how few edge calls I saw.

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2015, 11:16:14 PM »
! is an unclear edge, e is an actual edge call.  Obviously the e is more significant than the !.

I have seen judges at IJS competitions spanning almost the full length of the rink - so in many cases it really is more than "just a few feet" difference.

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2015, 11:35:56 PM »
It is true that depending on where you are sitting it will totally make a difference as to what you actually see. 

Also after any large event and definitely after an international event like Worlds there is a judges review and anything out of line is addressed.  This information is for educational purposes for the judges mostly but also serves as a sort of checks and balances for the entire event.

This seems really minor - VERY minor in the great grand scheme of all things figure skating and judging.

Offline amy1984

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2015, 04:18:41 PM »
I have seen judges at IJS competitions spanning almost the full length of the rink - so in many cases it really is more than "just a few feet" difference.

You are night.  When I went to see worlds when it was in London, ON.  I was surprised to see exactly how many officials were set up.  They spanned almost the whole ice (judges, tech specialist, referee, and all of their equipment - computers, etc.).  Yes, they have a better vantage point than most in the arena, but they all don't have the same view.

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Re: Tuktamisheva Worlds SP lutz GOE
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2015, 06:46:38 PM »
Her distance from the judges makes it difficult for them to see the details. Maybe a judge would decide she was trying to hide something.

I don't think it likely that she would appeal her scores from Worlds. Do you?

Barring a disqualification, those scores are set.