Avanta Custom Freestyle Skate boot purchase

[OmegaGMT]

As I am new to your forum I am not affiliated with Avanta in any way other than a financial supporter of a 17yr old skater wishing to complete her required testing to coach the next generation of skaters who needs new boots  strong enought to hold up the the forces required for such testing

I have 40 years of skiing not skating experience and 20 years of ski hill operational experience in rental equipment, ski lift maintainence and instruction

The goal of this post is to:
Take a purchaser thru the custom boot process
Report 2 views on the product purchased - my view more objective  and the skaters view more subjective
Support an industry which over the past few years has offered fewer and fewer choices

Because of my involvement in the skiing industry we also hope discuss future developments in skate boots thur the year

I will be supplying all measurements of the skaters foot direct to Avanta and doing the STS cast system myself- because of our location just north of Albany NY and the timing of the purchase we do not have the luxury to visit a dealer but we do have factory support for the STS process in Northern New Jersey if needed

I will be posting all info I have been supplied by Advanta over the next few days

I will also our reasons for choosing Avanta in the next few posts

We will not be comparing different manufactures equipment as we cannot review similar levels of equipment

Todd

[Casey]

I look forward to it!  My next boots will also be from Avanta.  We have some posts about them that you may be interested in in this thread:
http://skatingforums.com/index.php?topic=5855.0

[icedancer]

This is great - very curious about these boots!

[sarahspins]

I'm curious about these as well - I really like the design for Avanta that Will has come up with (it does have changes from Klingbiel), I've just been patiently waiting on hearing some "real world" reports from skaters.

[OmegaGMT]

I have 4 pdf's  supplied by Advanta boots  - they can be found here as they are too large for the forum

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0By3C6TVbNrpIYUU0Q0E2RmJVUkU&usp=sharing

To this point all my correspondence has been Directly with:

Bill Fauver, President
Avanta Skating Boots
123 Southeast Pkwy. Court
Ste.120
Franklin, TN  37064
T: 615-403-3758

My First Communication with Advanta was a Dear sir email on October 23rd 2014

"Dear Sir:

I read about your company in the article "The evolution of the figure skate" in the "The Professional Skater" I am searching for an advanced boot for a 17 year old, 125lbs female skater looking to finish her testing requirements to coach - she is currently on 3 yr old Riedell silver stars which are no longer capable of supporting her weight in jumps.
Due to her age and time constraints I am looking into technology advances that will aid the skater in achieving her goals.
Can I get more product details and pricing on your product.

Thank you in advance"

here is the response the following day

"Todd,
I am happy to speak with you about our boots and the best number to reach me on is 617-756-0550.  We are approaching the Avanta Skating Boots from a skater's perspective as we are the only skater owned and operated boot business in the country.
I look forward to speaking with you soon.
Best regards,
Bill Fauver, President
Avanta Skating Boots
123 Southeast Pkwy. Court
Ste.120
Franklin, TN  37064
T: 615-403-3758"

I called Bill that evening and we spoke about his product for about 30min

I would like to thank those of this Forum who posted information about Avanta to aid in my research - Casey - thank you!!!

Bill has also spoken directly with the skater prior to our deciding to purchase custom boots from Advanta

Advanta requested $400 down on our custom boot order  - I opted to pay the full price upfront along with the fee for the STS socks and shipping, we hope to also purchase a pattern99 style blade with these boots thru Advanta

We completed the order form with a sewing tape measure in about 30min checking each measurement twice for accuracy and emailed a picture of each completed order form along with picture of the skaters current skates with a tape measure laid along the heel

Today I spoke with Bill about the STS system and he again offered podiatrist help in upstate NJ should we need it - Bill says the key to the sock is not having any pressure on the toes when standing -  I will have a post detailing the STS process

Currently Bill, I and the skater are in discussions about the "firmness" of the boot in relation to a female the skater who is 5'3" tall and weighs 123lbs working toward a double axel and senior testing - the "firmness is a core function of Advanta and most likely other boots and is determined early in the construction process

[OmegaGMT]

As I said in my initial email to Bill, we were looking for technology to achieve a goal.

Boot weight
One can can watch other sports and trade many ideas. A common one is related to auto racing and a concept called un-sprung weight.  Un-sprung weight is the weight not carried by the cars suspension or on the case of skating weight below the ankle which performs the same function as the cars springs and shocks.  To much un-sprung weight puts to much stress on the suspension system resulting in breakage.  Because of my knowledge with my Miata which is very much effected by unsprung weight I did a lot of research in the Ice Fly boot but due to the costs and materials and expected life of the boot for our use turned it down - (for young light advanced skaters this looks to be an excellent choice as they are like the Miata are hampered by unsprung weight)

Boot tech
Bill at Avanta has some interesting patents which should have a greet effect on the "skaters suspension"  he hopes to bring an adgustable suspension boot to market.  His patent is not sport dependant  and could be used in other areas such as skiing, hiking, basketball.  In one of my discussions with Bill he expressed a desire to have a prototype produced in the next year so as our custom boot degrades we hope to transition into his new design  -  as trade secrets are generally held close to the vest - the best info is a publicly available patent which may or may not be exactly what Bill I discussed
Here is a link to one of his patents 

http://www.google.com/patents/US20030204971

[Casey]

Boot weight

I agree about "unsprung" weight, although the term doesn't exactly apply here as there is no suspension between the boot and the skater.  Nonetheless, I agree with what you're suggesting about it mattering more to younger lighter skaters and the weight being at the tip of the legs does mean it matters more than, say, weight on the thighs.  On a Miata you can tell the difference - on a 4000-lb Mercedes sedan, you cannot (I've alternated between steel and aluminum rims on such a vehicle to find out).  I personally don't find boot/blade weight to be any issue at all, and prefer traditional materials.

The default Avanta boot incorporates a layer of carbon fiber (same material Edea uses) between the leather layers of the boot uppers, which reduces weight while maintaining strength.  I don't think that I want that, personally, but Bill said they could make an all-leather boot on request with no problem.  It is nice that the option is there for those who want a lighter boot.

Looking at the PDF's you shared, it is interesting that they carry Skate Science blades.  I will been curious about these but few have tried them yet.  My inclination is to return to Gold Seals for my next blades but the Skate Science blades intrigue me.  You mention above that you are looking to get a "Pattern 99 style" blade - may I ask which specific blade you are considering?  A Wilson blade or another brand with a similar profile?

[OmegaGMT]

For blades we are using the following requirements

Ease of transition - thus no pattern change
Manufacturer
Materials
Less Weight

The current blades are 10" Wilson Pattern 99

The skater is confident with the pattern and manufacturer


Our preference in order
(1) HD Sports Wilson Pattern 99
(2) Riedell Eclipse infinity Titanium

Both have their minuses
The HS Sport unit is avaibility  - maybe mid January due to a change in the supplier who makes the carbon fiber portion
The Riedell unit is the potential brittleness of the Titanium in the cold


We did look at the CNC aluminum units with steel blade inserts but I am not a fan of this mixture of metals due to the potential of corrosion  -  even BMW uses special bolts in their aluminum engines because of this potential issue - this does not mean that there is any issue with this type of blade, it is just not for us and we have the monitary means to select a different product

[Casey]

The HS Sport unit is avaibility  - maybe mid January due to a change in the supplier who makes the carbon fiber portion

Ahh, you are talking about Revolution blades then...is this also to reduce weight?  Is using the current blades until the newer ones become available an option to consider?  (I'm assuming the current blades are standard Pattern 99's?)

The Riedell unit is the potential brittleness of the Titanium in the cold

I have no experience with Reidell blades, and had not heard of titanium being brittle in the cold before - interesting to know.  One thing to keep in mind is that the blades may be taller even though they have a similar rocker profile.  This is the case with Paramount's Pattern 99-profile blades (I have them currently).

We did look at the CNC aluminum units with steel blade inserts but I am not a fan of this mixture of metals due to the potential of crosion  -  even BMW uses special bolts in their aluminum engines because of this potential issue - this does not mean that there is any issue with this type of blade, it is just not for us and we have the monitary means to select a different product

I personally am not a big fan of them either.  I have them now and they aren't for me.  As you said about Ice Flys perhaps being better for younger lighter skaters, I think the same may also be true of these.  It may also be that I simply do not adapt well to the Pattern 99 profile at all - for me personally the Gold Seal profile worked much better.  So while I am not claiming they are awful blades, for me personally they aren't a good fit.

Good luck with whichever blades you decide on.  Will you also be letting us know how the break-in is with the new boots?  I am curious if the casting method helps with this at all...

[OmegaGMT]

As a person new to this sport that costs thousands of dollars to compete in I personally don't understand why there is so little information to make an informed decision with

I asked my skater how did you choose your last set of blades and boots
The answer was we did what the coach and dealer said

I looked at her and said

Would you go to the car dealer and say
I have a family with
2.1 kids
1.7 cats
0.7 dogs
We vacation at the beach in southern NJ on the bay side
My school is 3.2 miles one way
My office is 10.6 miles one way
Which car do I buy

Her 17 yr old response was "NO"

To which I said why would you trust your body to someone who makes money just selling a product with no license to practice

One only has to google "skater feet" to understand why we have decided to produce this thread/post

[lutefisk]

As a person new to this sport that costs thousands of dollars to compete in I personally don't understand why there is so little information to make an informed decision with

I asked my skater how did you choose your last set of blades and boots
The answer was we did what the coach and dealer said

I looked at her and said

Would you go to the car dealer and say
I have a family with
2.1 kids
1.7 cats
0.7 dogs
We vacation at the beach in southern NJ on the bay side
My school is 3.2 miles one way
My office is 10.6 miles one way
Which car do I buy

Her 17 yr old response was "NO"

To which I said why would you trust your body to someone who makes money just selling a product with no license to practice

One only has to google "skater feet" to understand why we have decided to produce this thread/post

For starters, I would have asked "Specifically, which town in southern NJ?"  But more to the point, I think 99% of figure skaters rely on judgement from their coach and skate technician/boot fitter.  Some of those folks have deep knowledge having spent years in the sport, others not so much.  One does need to gauge that aspect so that the advice is coming from someone knowledgeable rather than the village idiot.  But, at least in my experience, coaches and skate techs do tend to know more about equipment than the skater.  Finally, good dealers do want repeat customers.   

[AgnesNitt]

I had  coach who had a theory about skater height and boot rocker. I always thought it was bogus.

I have a theory about rocker position on the blade relative to the foot. Blades are designed for average feet. Most people have these, so most blades fit them. I have issues w/ getting the rocker where I want it, and I've begun thinking about having my fitter compare the blade to my foot before he puts it on the boot, just to see if there's a way to mark the rocker, the boot, and my foot, so they all line up before he starts to drill.

I have  creditable expertise making my boots fit, and my fitter just told me to go ahead and make my own blade adjustments while the blades are on the test setting. I just can't get myself to do that. I was able to get the rocker on the right foot perfect by doing things inside the boot, but left foot,  I think he'll have to move it.

I think all this effort could be reduced if things were marked and compared before putting it together.

[Casey]

I asked my skater how did you choose your last set of blades and boots
The answer was we did what the coach and dealer said

I looked at her and said

Would you go to the car dealer and say
I have a family with
2.1 kids
1.7 cats
0.7 dogs
We vacation at the beach in southern NJ on the bay side
My school is 3.2 miles one way
My office is 10.6 miles one way
Which car do I buy

Her 17 yr old response was "NO"

To which I said why would you trust your body to someone who makes money just selling a product with no license to practice

This sounds like the conversation I had with Warren, who started SkateScience. The reality is that most people buy whatever their coach tells them, or else whatever is popular at their rink.  He made a comparison  similar to what you wrote here.  The most respected blade designs are quite old, from a time before the sport had progressed nearly so much. His claim was that newer technology could design blades more optimal for modern skating. I don't know - while the older design may not have been arrived at so scientifically it seems to work well for many great skaters and has stood the test of time. I guess time will tell whether these new blades will actually take off. Also I think that a decent coach would have not only significant personal experience but also a lot of knowledge of the experiences of peers during their skating days and students since, though there may also be a significant degree of personal bias...

[sarahspins]

Also I think that a decent coach would have not only significant personal experience but also a lot of knowledge of the experiences of peers during their skating days and students since, though their may also be a significant degree of personal bias...

This is especially true... my own coach "doesn't like" paramounts.  I have them, and I've skated on them for about 3 years now (maybe a little longer), and she has no problem with that (plus I am an adult and will buy what I like), but she says she'd NEVER recommend them to a student.  Her reasons why are somewhat superficial and based largely on hearsay, not actual experiences, but most coaches I know are somewhat reluctant to try new things, especially when it involves a new product from a new or relatively new company (and even though Paramount has been around a while, it's still comparatively "new").

I love my blades, and I will probably stick with them for the foreseeable future, mostly because I like the feel of stainless on the ice, and I can keep my beloved Phantom profile.

Skate Science is even newer, but since they tend to be on display at a lot of local competitions I think I see more skaters in those blades than one might encounter throughout the rest of the country.. the overall opinion seems to be positive, but many coaches still seem reluctant to "let" their skaters try them out.

[OmegaGMT]

We a 150 plus miles from large population centers on the east coast - Albany is called Smallbany for a reason

Mostly lack of everything

Our choices are NYC, Boston and Philly

We are not competing and our schedules do not allow for travel so the Avanta boot process offers us a compromise

Today I would like to thank alll of you who have brought forth comments and I hope that others who are purchasing products would begin posts like this to help others entering and continuing it this sport make informed decisions - to all in this sport - please take the time to reflect on the past year and thank those who have made a difference in your life

Lutefisk - wildwood crest(the beach and water temp), and cape may (the Victorian homes, stone beach)

[Query]

I wish Avanta provided more data about options and prices on their website. My old Klingbeils are dying.

They've got great people and interesting ideas, but we need some guinea pigs to try them out, and review their boots and customer service for us.

We did look at the CNC aluminum units with steel blade inserts but I am not a fan of this mixture of metals due to the potential of corrosion

I guess you mean Jackson Ultima Matrix and Paramount blades...

Jackson and/or Paramount have an adhesive between the runners and the mounting chassis that might prevent such rust - but I don't know the details or effectiveness.

Jackson also uses steel rivets or screws to reinforce the adhesive. Perhaps there is adhesive, coating or washer on the rivets or bolts to prevent such corrosion there too?

I've had the older Jackson Ultima Matrix 1 blades for years. I see no significant corrosion. But that design was different - no adhesive, aluminum (I think) bolts.

Has anyone seen corrosion problems on Jackson or Paramount blades around the interface between the two metals?

[Bill_S]

You probably won't see the steel blade corroding. Aluminum is slightly more anodic than carbon steel, and it would become the sacrificial metal, not the steel. The galvanic potential between those two metals is very small though. I did find curious that stainless steel and aluminum have a higher galvanic potential than aluminum with carbon steels.

Now if you skated on saltwater, you'd probably want to take extra measures. Otherwise, I'd just skate and be happy.

[Jon-Ohio]

Post some pics of your new Avanta boots and blades, if possible, when you get them. I'm really interested in seeing what they look like . Thanks

Jon in ohio

[lutefisk]

Lutefisk - wildwood crest(the beach and water temp), and cape may (the Victorian homes, stone beach)

I like Cape May, for the reasons you've mentioned (and also for several good Cape May County wineries) but having grown up on the island of Brigantine (next barrier island north of AC) I'm kinda partial to that beach.  Besides, there's a rink (Flyer's Skate Zone) close by in west Atlantic City in case I tire of the sun and sand.

[OmegaGMT]

I will supply pictures , detail the STS process from both the skater and applier's view but we are a few weeks out on the boots

As for the isle of Brigantine ..... How is the old castle on the north end of the isle


Query - do not be shy email or call Bill at Advanta unlike the owner of the Yankee's but like the owner of Hendrick Racing(drivers Jeff Gordon, jimmy Johnson, Dale Earnhardt Jr. and Kasey Kahne) Bill will return your call and answer any questions you have - in our case both myself and the skater I am supporting - if you are put off by Harlick's nickle and dime pricing process Avanta maybe the choice for you - the 5th post of this thread provides a link to the basic Advanta documents to order boots

[Query]

I did find curious that stainless steel and aluminum have a higher galvanic potential than aluminum with carbon steels.

Now if you skated on saltwater, you'd probably want to take extra measures. Otherwise, I'd just skate and be happy.

Ultima Matrix blades use stainless steel, though it has to be a high carbon alloy to be sufficiently hard and durable. My personal experience with the older model has been that rust is simply not an issue, though to be fair, I wipe them dry and store them uncovered, and I've never used them on salt water ice. Matrix blades have been around long enough that such problems would be well known if they were a major issue.

What materials would you use for saltwater? My personal experience from sea kayaks, is that even aluminum and the most rust resistant marine grade steel alloys, which are incidentally much softer than 318 alloy, so wouldn't be very durable, eventually corrode beyond usefulness. You could coat the chassis and the sides of the blades with epoxy, but what about the working surface? I've an old Tekna dive knife (for kayak use), whose instructions say to wash it clean of salt immediately after use. Is that the only approach for a hardened blade in salt water?

[Bill_S]

Geeky reply alert!

I doubt that anyone will be skating on frozen sea water. Even if you did, the frozen water itself would contain very little salt.

Still, this is a fun topic to think about.

I see a lot of diving knives made from 420 stainless, but they don't have to be fastened to a sole plate like skate blades. The 420 alloy doesn't weld easily. I'm not sure about how lower temperature brazing/silver soldering would affect it. However, it has a good hardness up to  55 RockwellC in it's normal hardened state. http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/martensitic/420_data_sheet.pdf Like most stainless, it's resistant to saltwater but not impervious.

Titanium is completely unaffected by saltwater, but doesn't have quite the hardness of most steels (up to 47RC as claimed by Mission Knive's data sheet http://www.missionknives.com/index.php/why-titanium) Still, the corrosion resistance and strength offered by titanium is what is offered in return. It's apparently used by the Navy Seals. Mission doesn't specify the alloy for their knives, so I'm unsure about how easily it would be to weld or fabricate it into skate blades. Knife blades are simpler shapes to manufacture, eliminating the need to be welded or brazed.

Right now, there are generally two schools of thought for skate blade materials -

1) Use a high-carbon steel (cheap, proven effective, easy to stamp, braze, and form). It responds nicely to heat treatment for case hardening the outside surface while leaving the center more ductile. Unfortunately, it rusts easily so chrome plating is necessary except for the "business end". That bit of bare steel in particular requires drying and proper storage.

2) Use a stainless alloy for corrosion resistance which eliminates the need for plating. If the whole blade must be stainless, there will be tradeoffs made when selecting the alloy to enable the fabricating of the entire blade (welding, brazing, and silver solder all present challenges). If the blade is just a runner, tradeoffs are fewer, and an alloy can be selected to maximize blade edge hardness and wear.

Oh, this is getting geeky. I'd better stop!

[Casey]

Paramount blades are available with runners in carbon steel, 420 stainless, or (most expensive) 440 stainless. Mine are 440.

The edges retain sharpness extremely well. I had them sharpened once, after I bought them, over five years ago. Granted I was not skating regularly during that time, but I did use them periodically, and more recently have been using frequently with no sign of edge degredation at all yet.

The bigger issue with the two different metals I think is because they expand/contract at different rates. Warren at Skate Science said this is why they are loud on the ice, and can also cause the runners to separate in time. They are indeed loud, and this is a common complaint owners of Paramounts have.

I don't know if I would like solid stainless steel blades (like Skate Science makes) or not as I have never tried them. I would be happy to go back to carbon steel blades after the Paramounts, not only but in part due to the loudness on the ice, and rigidity which is mainly due to the aluminum frame.

I do not know what grade of stainless Skate Science uses, but while it is said to hold sharpness longer than carbon blades, I do not think it is as insane as 440. Probably as Bill pointed out it's possible to use this grade for a runner but has other issues that prevent it from working for an entire blade.

Bill - do you know if stainless is generally more rigid than carbon? The Paramounts are very rigid which I think might be why I don't favor the "feel" of them on the ice. I wonder how rigid a solid stainless blade would be in comparison to carbon. Wilson used to advertise the flex of the metal as a beneficial property...

Disclaimer: before anyone reads too far into this, I think my biggest issue with the Paramounts is the Pattern 99 profile. I have not tried Gold Seal profile Paramounts to be able to give a more isolated comparison...

[Bill_S]

By rigid if mean how much deflection there is with an applied load, then stainless is slightly lower than carbon steel in that regard. 420 stainless has a Young's modulus of 29,000,000 while 1075 carbon steel is slightly stiffer at 30,000,000 psi. Young's modulus is a kind of "spring rate" of a material for a given cross section. If you are talking about resisting permanent deformation, yield strength numbers can shed some light. Hardened and stress relieved 420 stainless has a slightly lower yield strength of up to 195,000 psi compared to about 220,000 for the carbon steel. The carbon steel comes out ahead there too, but really the differences are very small.

Remember that the mechanical mounting method of a runner can significantly affect it's resistance to deflection (rigidity). A mount/frame with a large cross-section can impart strength and keep a thin runner from deflecting. IIRC, if you double the frame width, lateral stiffness increases 4X. Since most frame blade mounts are aluminum (1/3 the stiffness of steel per area), the mount can be made as stiff as a solid steel stanchion if its thickness is sqrt (3) = 1.7 times the blade thickness.

[Casey]

By rigid if mean how much deflection there is with an applied load, then stainless is slightly lower than carbon steel in that regard. 420 stainless has a Young's modulus of 29,000,000 while 1075 carbon steel is slightly stiffer at 30,000,000 psi. Young's modulus is a kind of "spring rate" of a material for a given cross section. If you are talking about resisting permanent deformation, yield strength numbers can shed some light. Hardened and stress relieved 420 stainless has a slightly lower yield strength of up to 195,000 psi compared to about 220,000 for the carbon steel. The carbon steel comes out ahead there too, but really the differences are very small.

Wow at the details! Sounds like they are close, which is good enough for me. At least SS is not LESS flexible, which was my concern.

Remember that the mechanical mounting method of a runner can significantly affect it's resistance to deflection (rigidity). A mount/frame with a large cross-section can impart strength and keep a thin runner from deflecting. IIRC, if you double the frame width, lateral stiffness increases 4X. Since most frame blade mounts are aluminum (1/3 the stiffness of steel per area), the mount can be made as stiff as a solid steel stanchion if its thickness is sqrt (3) = 1.7 times the blade thickness.

Well my method is not scientific, but when I take same-sized pieces of carbon steel and aluminum, the steel I can bend a bit, but not stay bent (permanently deform). The aluminum, on the other hand, does not flex/spring at all, unless it permanently bends. That's what I mean when I say aluminum is more rigid, and it's what I reckon makes the Paramount blades "feel different" on the ice. It could also be my imagination...not really sure how much a good steel blade actually flexes under my weight.

I wonder why Wilson and MK never made a stainless version of anybof their blades...

P.S. Maybe we should move this discussion to a new thread?