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Author Topic: 3 turn practice off ice  (Read 4178 times)

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Offline jbruced

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3 turn practice off ice
« on: November 05, 2014, 11:25:48 AM »
I am typically only able to get to the ice rink once a week for a two hour session and I really need to work on all the 3 turns. Does anyone have suggestions on how to practice 3 turns off the ice?

Offline irenar5

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »
You can get a skate spinner with a rocker and practice alignment and free leg position on it.  I found it very helpful!  Also, you can look in the mirror to make sure your position is good as frequently we feel like the shoulders or arms or leg is in the right position, but visually it is not. 

skate spinner:   http://www.skatesus.com/store/product_info.php?products_id=332
Other companies make them too.

Offline WaltzJump413

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2014, 09:44:33 PM »
I'd also try wearing socks on a hard floor. You can at least feel the turning motion that way.  :)

I totally understand--I only can skate once a week too (except for very rare occasions) and I'm always trying to do stuff off ice.
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Offline dlbritton

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2014, 05:09:01 PM »
AgnesNitt has an article on her blog about using a paper plate to practice 3 turns.

http://icedoesntcare.blogspot.com/2011/12/check-please.html
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Offline jbruced

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2014, 07:40:46 AM »
Thank you all for the replies! I had heard of the spinners and wondered if they would work for this. I checked the link to Agnes Nitts blog and her first sentence made me chuckle as I also have trouble understanding what the word check means. I hear it a lot at the rink when I'm there and on youtube videos but just don't fully understand it. I'm going to to try the paper plate method and look into getting a spinner and in the meantime just work on the turns with socks on my hardwood floors. Thank you for the suggestions!

Offline Loops

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2014, 08:24:06 AM »
I had to chuckle at your trouble with the word "check"....I have the opposite problem- in French they don't seem to have the equivalent word, so we've settled on "doing that movement that stops the rotation".....kind of a mouthful.

I have a spinner, I got it from HolySalchow off Amazon (they might sell directly from their website...google can help you find it).  I like it.  It's cheaper than the plastic ones, but I presume will wear out sooner since the wood is soft.  I'm using it to work on my backspins now, and twizzles.  It would work for three-turns as well.  Somewhere buried in these threads is a convo about exercises you can do.  You'll have to search on "spinner" or "spin trainer" and read around.  Like most tools though, it's probably most useful with a coach.....

Offline littlerain

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2014, 02:23:04 PM »
I think I may try practicing 3s on my spinner. My leg keeps wandering on those back 3s! And checking my left forward ones lol
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Offline skategeek

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2014, 02:30:21 PM »
I just ordered an Edea spinner so I can try this.  I think it's arriving tomorrow.  (Do they need a hard surface or will they work on thin carpet?  Wondering if I can use it in my office…)

Offline Loops

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2014, 03:04:25 PM »
I just ordered an Edea spinner so I can try this.  I think it's arriving tomorrow.  (Do they need a hard surface or will they work on thin carpet?  Wondering if I can use it in my office…)

Not sure about a carpet, might be too much friction.  I have heard that they will damage wood floors.  People have talked about getting a heavy duty rubber mat from Home Depot/Lowes and using it on that.  I have tile floors and despite the joins, it works just fine.  Except when I fall down.  Youch.

Offline Query

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2014, 04:11:25 PM »
That paper plate technique sounds neat!

There are many different ways that coaches teach people how to do 3-turns - depending on the level, but also on the coach.

In this context, "check" means stop [specifically stop the turn]. A very uncommon usage of the word, though hockey players talk of checking or reversing another player's motion by bumping into them. I've always felt that English is way too large and complex a language. And yet it has become very common...

I've mentioned this before, but if checking is the main issue you have trouble with, try creating the turn by counter-rotating the upper body against the rotation direction you want the lower body to turn.

E.g., for a LFO [left forward outside] 3-turn, the upper body rotates CW, and the push the lower body gives it to do so, creates a counteracting force from the upper body on the lower body that pushes the lower body into CCW rotation.

Then, when the lower body has rotated about 180 degrees, you run out of your range of motion, and muscles and ligaments have stretched until they pull the upper and lower half of the body into stopping.

A physics way of saying this is that you have the same amount of total angular momentum (roughly zero, although skating on an edge means you have a little) before, during, and after the 3-turn.

There are several key elements:

1. Your arms and shoulders must be extended and fairly stiff. Otherwise the upper half of the body would need to rotate 180 degrees too so that the upper body has rotated a full 360 degrees relative to the lower body - and no one is that flexible (I think). A physicist would say that having your arms out gives them more "moment of inertia", so the upper body doesn't have to turn much to balance the angular momentum of turning the lower body.

2. The legs must of course do the opposite, stay close together during the turn - you may even bring the free foot adjacent to touch the skating foot ankle - so they rotate more than the upper body.

3. You must bend your knees before the whole move, straighten them as you turn, and bend them again at the end. This reduces the weight and therefore the friction at the moment of spin.

4. During the turn, you must bring your weight and the point of contact with the ice forward for forward 3-turns, and forward or back [some coaches say forwards, some say back] for backwards 3-turns. This helps you get rid of that weight too - and the blade turns easier when the contact point is near an end. (At the end of the turn your weight and point of contact come towards the center again.)

--------------------

ALTERNATIVE TECHNIQUE

Of course, it is far more intuitive and common for beginners to use other methods to create turns. You could use arm swings to transfer spin to your body, let your toe pick touch, or PUSH hard outwards against the edge as you turn (e.g., for a LFO 3-turn, you could push against the outside edge, which creates friction on that side, causing your whole body to spin CCW), to create more spin (more "angular momentum"). These are very common alternative techniques to initiate turns.

But then you have to find a way to get rid of that extra spin (angular momentum) at the end.

Those techniques makes it very easy to turn - but much harder to check, because of all that extra spin.

You could check those style of turn by pushing against the edge at the end (for a LFO 3-turn, you would be pushing outwards against the LBI edge you are on at the end), to create friction that stops the turn.

By "pushing outwards" I mean outwards from the center of the arc you are skating on. In particular, that outwards foot push causes the outside lean you have at the beginning of the LFO turn to become an inside lean.

Personally I find that checking technique very hard to use.

--------------------

It is possible to combine both techniques - most of the turn momentum is created by the upper body counter-twist, but an outwards push with the foot turns the outside lean (appropriate for an outside edge) into an inside lean (appropriate for an inside edge). But concentrating on two methods at once is hard.

--------------------

I hope that was clear.

Offline irenar5

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2014, 09:40:55 PM »
I just ordered an Edea spinner so I can try this.  I think it's arriving tomorrow.  (Do they need a hard surface or will they work on thin carpet?  Wondering if I can use it in my office…)

I have a thin dense rubber mat with a sightly soft top on the hardwood floor (a welcome home mat from Home Depot). 
You do not want to use the spinner on the hardwood floor without a mat!  The spinner gets out of control very easily and can slip, also it scratches the floor. 

Offline Neverdull44

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2014, 09:52:38 PM »
Different levels of three turns . . .my power threes are in progress.  Everything I learned about three turns has been turned upside down. 

Worst problem is that sometimes I skid a little into the three turn.  Happens more on my left foot (dominate rotation) than my right, which seems weird.  To fix the skidding into it, about 2 inches right before the turn.    I have to go a bit slower.  Speed will bring a skid, because from a standstill I don't skid.   I also have to counter my arms real hard and act like I am about to sit down on a chair, ankle pressure, and keep the legs and feet quiet.  When I do all of this, I don't skid.  But, I will have a "spoon" on the top of the turn.   That's from going onto my toe pick just a tad.  But, I learned 3 turns from knowing where the toe pick was . . . so, now I'm relearning three turns because of power threes. . . .

Offline skategeek

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2014, 11:03:15 PM »
I have a thin dense rubber mat with a sightly soft top on the hardwood floor (a welcome home mat from Home Depot). 
You do not want to use the spinner on the hardwood floor without a mat!  The spinner gets out of control very easily and can slip, also it scratches the floor.

Good to know, thanks!  At home it'll either be on kitchen linoleum or hard tile (vinyl, not ceramic) in the basement.  I'll test a little first and see whether I need a mat.

That paper plate technique sounds neat!

There are many different ways that coaches teach people how to do 3-turns - depending on the level, but also on the coach.

In this context, "check" means stop [specifically stop the turn]. A very uncommon usage of the word, though hockey players talk of checking or reversing another player's motion by bumping into them. I've always felt that English is way too large and complex a language. And yet it has become very common...

I've mentioned this before, but if checking is the main issue you have trouble with, try creating the turn by counter-rotating the upper body against the rotation direction you want the lower body to turn.

E.g., for a LFO [left forward outside] 3-turn, the upper body rotates CW, and the push the lower body gives it to do so, creates a counteracting force from the upper body on the lower body that pushes the lower body into CCW rotation.

Then, when the lower body has rotated about 180 degrees, you run out of your range of motion, and muscles and ligaments have stretched until they pull the upper and lower half of the body into stopping.

A physics way of saying this is that you have the same amount of total angular momentum (roughly zero, although skating on an edge means you have a little) before, during, and after the 3-turn.

There are several key elements:

1. Your arms and shoulders must be extended and fairly stiff. Otherwise the upper half of the body would need to rotate 180 degrees too so that the upper body has rotated a full 360 degrees relative to the lower body - and no one is that flexible (I think). A physicist would say that having your arms out gives them more "moment of inertia", so the upper body doesn't have to turn much to balance the angular momentum of turning the lower body.

2. The legs must of course do the opposite, stay close together during the turn - you may even bring the free foot adjacent to touch the skating foot ankle - so they rotate more than the upper body.

3. You must bend your knees before the whole move, straighten them as you turn, and bend them again at the end. This reduces the weight and therefore the friction at the moment of spin.

4. During the turn, you must bring your weight and the point of contact with the ice forward for forward 3-turns, and forward or back [some coaches say forwards, some say back] for backwards 3-turns. This helps you get rid of that weight too - and the blade turns easier when the contact point is near an end. (At the end of the turn your weight and point of contact come towards the center again.)

Thanks; that's helpful!  Initially I'm going to just be working on balance, not even proper form.  I just need to be able to make the turn and stay up without putting my free foot down.  I've got the idea of checking the turn and I think I'm doing it right, so I think that part will be ok if I can manage to stay on one foot. 

Offline skategeek

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2014, 07:43:42 PM »
Just got my spinner!  If you guys hear occasional loud thumps coming from New Jersey, that was probably me.   88)

Offline twinskaters

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2014, 07:49:29 PM »
LOL, have fun and report back!

Offline rd350

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2014, 11:45:29 PM »
Which spinner did you get skategeek?
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Offline skategeek

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2014, 08:32:33 AM »
Which spinner did you get skategeek?

The Edea one- it's a single piece of plastic with a curved bottom, not the kind with two separate plates that rotate.

Tried it out last night… this is going to take some work!  Apparently I have good balance standing still (I can stand on one foot for several minutes), but when I rotate I totally lose it.  Practice, practice, practice!

Offline irenar5

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2014, 07:49:58 PM »
The Edea one- it's a single piece of plastic with a curved bottom, not the kind with two separate plates that rotate.

Tried it out last night… this is going to take some work!  Apparently I have good balance standing still (I can stand on one foot for several minutes), but when I rotate I totally lose it.  Practice, practice, practice!

This is where that "check" comes into play, to stop the rotation and gain balance:-)

Offline skategeek

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2014, 08:18:41 PM »
This is where that "check" comes into play, to stop the rotation and gain balance:-)

I've mostly got the "stopping rotation" part, but it doesn't do much good if I'm way overbalanced… working on that!  I may go back to doing it in my socks first so I'm not moving quite as quickly.

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Offline jbruced

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2014, 08:34:43 PM »
Apparently I have good balance standing still (I can stand on one foot for several minutes)
Have you tried standing one foot with your eyes closed? Most people can't stand one foot with their eyes closed for much more than 5 seconds unless they practice. I wonder if this would help with spinning since to some degree I think we lose some of our visual proprioception when we are rotating quickly.

Offline skategeek

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2014, 08:56:52 PM »
Have you tried standing one foot with your eyes closed? Most people can't stand one foot with their eyes closed for much more than 5 seconds unless they practice. I wonder if this would help with spinning since to some degree I think we lose some of our visual proprioception when we are rotating quickly.

Wow… just tried that.  It's surprisingly difficult.  Something else to work on!

Offline jbruced

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2014, 09:00:10 PM »
skategeek try it on a mini-trampoline. It really works the lower leg muscles.

Offline Query

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2014, 11:48:56 PM »
Try spinning on one foot on the ice with your eyes closed. Don't ask me why, but I sometimes go completely off balance that way.

In any event, I can give you a physics explanation of why it is very hard to stay balanced on the the single-piece-of-plastic-spinners while you are standing still, just as it is very hard to stay balanced on a single ice skate while standing still:

That's because you are trying to balance on a few square mm. To stay in static balance, you have to keep your center of gravity vertically over top that tiny base of support. When you balance standing on one foot on the ground, you have a great big wide and long foot in contact with the ground, that gives you a much bigger base of support to stay over. When you balance over two feet on the ground, you not only have the areas of each foot that you can stay over to be in balance, but you have the area that connects them. So it's a lot easier to balance over an entire foot in contact with the ground, and even easier to balance over two feet.

When you balance while spinning on the ice, you probably aren't really trying to balance over a single point - the blade moves around a little circle. So spinning in balance over a moving blade on the ice is much easier than balancing over those single piece spinners. I honestly don't understand how anyone can use them.

I've tried, and admit to complete failure.

P.S. People who know me from this forum know that I advocate fall practice. I think your spinner will give you a lot of opportunity to practice falls, whether you mean to or not! But make sure you don't have sharp counters and other things will sharp corners around to hit your head on.

Offline jbruced

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2014, 09:41:04 AM »
Try spinning on one foot on the ice with your eyes closed. Don't ask me why, but I sometimes go completely off balance that way.
Closing your eyes cuts off a significant portion of information that tells us we are upright and stable; or balanced. With the eyes closed we depend more on proprioception from our feet and ankles as well as the inner ear. These systems struggle with the sudden loss of the visual inputs. All of this is compounded when you are trying to balance on the small area as you noted.

You can make standing on one foot even more difficult by closing your eyes and then tilting your head back to look straight up. This kind of takes the inner ear out of the loop along with the visual cues.

Offline rd350

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Re: 3 turn practice off ice
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2014, 06:14:57 PM »
Thanks skategeek.

I agree with the eyes closed balancing exercise.

Another good one is to stare at a point on the wall while moving your head from side to side and/or up and down, while maintaining contact with your eyes on the spot (you can just put a sticky with a solid dot on the wall).  It will challenge your vestibular system in a different way.  Do it standing on one foot.
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