Thoughts about Coronation Ace Revolution blades?

[rd350]

I am currently wearing very old Reidell Royals with Coronation Ace blades, both in very good condition, though the boots don't fit quite right.

I am being fitted 7/31 for new boots and blades with Jim at the Ice House and will go with the recommendation but I am curious about the new Revolution blades.

I like the idea of new technology but I'm not doing major jumps.  I just "want" the new ones  and they make Coronation Ace Revolution blades too now.  They're just $80 more so the $$ won't make the decision.

Thoughts?  TIA

[TropicalSk8ter]

The blades revolution are mainly for cushioned landings and for prosthetics nothing huge in difference. 

[Doubletoe]

Are the Revolution blades actually available in your size?  They have temporarily stopped making them because they are looking for a new supplier of the carbon fiber.  If there's not a big difference in price and someone still has them in stock, why not grab a pair!

[rd350]

@TropicalSk8ter the cushion sounds nice!

@Doubletoe I'm not sure.  I read somewhere they would be available in August I thought.  At this point it's looking like I won't have new boots until August so it may work out.  I don't know how the ordering goes at the Ice House but I see Kinzie's closet does have them.

Now as I'm researching I'm wondering about Parabolic vs. not.  Thoughts?  The Revolution Coronation Ace's don't come that way but the regulars do.  Not sure what I have now.

[Doubletoe]

@TropicalSk8ter the cushion sounds nice!

@Doubletoe I'm not sure.  I read somewhere they would be available in August I thought.  At this point it's looking like I won't have new boots until August so it may work out.  I don't know how the ordering goes at the Ice House but I see Kinzie's closet does have them.

Now as I'm researching I'm wondering about Parabolic vs. not.  Thoughts?  The Revolution Coronation Ace's don't come that way but the regulars do.  Not sure what I have now.

Each of these features can add cost, so just be conscious of whether or not you want to spend that much money adding features to an intermediate level blade.  On the Parabolic blade, the difference in width between the middle of the blade and the ends of the blade is so tiny it's hard to see how it would make a difference.  I have Parabolic blades but just because I was able to get them for the same price as the regular ones.  My issue now is that--even though I'm not sure if they were ever any better than the regular version--I am now afraid to go back to the non-Parabolics because I'm afraid I'd feel a difference.

[rd350]

Yeah that's another issue with upgrading/changes - going back never seems a real option.

I may be able to use my current blades on the new boots but I'm thinking it would be nice to have a pair of backup boots but everyone says I will NEVER want to put them on again.  We'll see.

I will go with the recommendation.  Jim is supposed to be excellent at fitting.

Any question you would recommend asking?  About boots or blades?

Thanks for your input!

[lutefisk]

Related question for the group re: blades with carbon fiber supporting parts--Any reports of acute failure of the carbon part of a blade?  I love carbon fiber for boat masts and bicycle frames.  The main advantages are light weight and "tunable" stiffness of the part in question.  However the downside is that carbon composites are prone to cryptic damage which can lead to catastrophic failure without warning. 

Latest example is the failure of professional cyclist Alberto Contador's Tour de France bike's frame.  The story is that the bike was clipped slightly by a passing car while on the roof of the team car.  The damage was not obvious.  Later, Contador was given that particular bike to ride.  The carbon frame failed while Contador was riding uphill.  His injuries (broken femur) caused him to abandon the Tour.  If the failure had taken place during a fast downhill section his injuries would probably been much worse. 

Also, although this would not be a problem for composite parts in an indoor ice skating environment, mixing carbon fiber with aluminum has proved to be particularly bad if the composite structure comes in contact with salt water (as in the case of sail boat masts, and related parts). Salt + carbon fiber+ aluminum makes a great battery.  The carbon being much more "noble" on the electromotive scale than aluminum tends to cause the aluminum to degrade.  We've learned the hard way to never ever put aluminum pop rivets into carbon structures--at least not without some form of insulation such as a nylon washer to isolate the carbon from the aluminum.  I've personally seen several carbon fiber racing dinghy masts which have failed big time during windy races.  Just wondering about composite blades.  Again, any reports?

[rd350]

Wow that is really interesting @lutefisk!  Definitely some food for thought.  I'm not sure how long these Revolution blades have been around since I've just returned to skating but I wonder if it's been long enough to assess these types of issues.

I just did a quick search for Revolution blade failures and didn't come up with anything.

[lutefisk]

The corrosion issue is established to the point where the Boeing Corp. has a website post addressing the issue in terms of aircraft maintenance: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/aero_07/corrosn.html

The problem that I'm more concerned about in relation to composite skate blades is hidden damage caused for example, by accidentally dropping a skate on a hard surface like the parking lot as one juggles car keys and skates etc.  A steel blade might get a dent or repairable edge damage but would still be safe for continued use.  A blade with carbon support structures might look perfectly OK but have hidden damage waiting for an inopportune moment to reveal itself.  Again, I'm no expert.  I'm just asking a question since these problems have been documented in other use scenarios.  Every material has it's strengths and weaknesses.

[Bill_S]

My guess, given the complex shape of the blade mount, is that the material is a carbon-fiber reinforced polymer (plastic). These are probably injection molded, and not the same woven carbon fiber construction used in tubular shapes (sailboat masts, bicycle frames, aerospace). In that regard, the skate mounts wouldn't have the same corrosion problem as these other items.



vs.



However, polymers have their own problems, especially at the connection to the metal (stress points).

Personally, I'd stay away from them even though they are lighter. Light is good, but durable is better - for me at least. I couldn't take advantage of the few ounces weight savings offered, and if I needed more cushion for landings, I'd just use a thicker insole. I smell a lot of marketing hype for a blade that should be cheaper to make than a brazed metal  blade.

[rd350]

Good points Bill!  Thanks

My coach thought someone at my level should have a heavier blade.  It was only when I said "but they're so pretty" that he said well.... but I seriously doubt Jim at Ice House will recommend these.  7/31 - cannot wait to see what I end up with (boots and blades)!

[Query]

If you skate on indoor ice, salt water corrosion is unlikely to be an issue.



If you skate on outdoor ice, expensive blades would be insane.

I'd still think you could get essentially the same flexibility/cushioning effect at virtually no cost by placing (shimming) a compressible substance between the blade and the sole of the boot, and/or by using a compressible insole.

But, hey, if you've money to burn, revolutions look very cool.

-----------------------------

Parabolic (thicker at the ends) vs tapered (thicker in the middle) enthusiasts claim that opposite shapes are better. And they variously claim completely opposite effects for a given shape -  easier to turn or easier to track.

What I really don't understand is how some blades can be simultaneously called parabolic and tapered. Does anyone know?

The amount of thickness difference (.001 to .002 inches) sounds tiny, but would be enough to affect skating a lot, if it was a left/right edge height difference. So for all I know the enthusiasts are all simultaneously correct  , if they know how to make use of the differences.

---------------------

I'm not a good enough skater that such minor but expensive changes in equipment can possibly make as much difference as a few extra lessons or a little extra ice time. Maybe you are.

[rd350]

@query, no I'm not either!  Agreed, better used on an extra lesson or two.  I'm sure Jim will look at me like I have 2 heads, when I ask about blades.... well if I ask these same questions.   

[Doubletoe]

Related question for the group re: blades with carbon fiber supporting parts--Any reports of acute failure of the carbon part of a blade?  I love carbon fiber for boat masts and bicycle frames.  The main advantages are light weight and "tunable" stiffness of the part in question.  However the downside is that carbon composites are prone to cryptic damage which can lead to catastrophic failure without warning. 

Latest example is the failure of professional cyclist Alberto Contador's Tour de France bike's frame.  The story is that the bike was clipped slightly by a passing car while on the roof of the team car.  The damage was not obvious.  Later, Contador was given that particular bike to ride.  The carbon frame failed while Contador was riding uphill.  His injuries (broken femur) caused him to abandon the Tour.  If the failure had taken place during a fast downhill section his injuries would probably been much worse. 

Also, although this would not be a problem for composite parts in an indoor ice skating environment, mixing carbon fiber with aluminum has proved to be particularly bad if the composite structure comes in contact with salt water (as in the case of sail boat masts, and related parts). Salt + carbon fiber+ aluminum makes a great battery.  The carbon being much more "noble" on the electromotive scale than aluminum tends to cause the aluminum to degrade.  We've learned the hard way to never ever put aluminum pop rivets into carbon structures--at least not without some form of insulation such as a nylon washer to isolate the carbon from the aluminum.  I've personally seen several carbon fiber racing dinghy masts which have failed big time during windy races.  Just wondering about composite blades.  Again, any reports?

A friend of mine is a friend of the man at Wilson who designed these blades and she asked him this very question on my behalf (my husband is an engineer so he had the exact same concern).  I don't remember the exact reply, but the short answer was that, no, this has not been a problem with the Revolution blades.  But what is currently a problem is availability, since the last I heard, Wilson was looking for a new supplier for the carbon material.  I have been waiting for a pair since early May.

[Nate]

My guess, given the complex shape of the blade mount, is that the material is a carbon-fiber reinforced polymer (plastic). These are probably injection molded, and not the same woven carbon fiber construction used in tubular shapes (sailboat masts, bicycle frames, aerospace). In that regard, the skate mounts wouldn't have the same corrosion problem as these other items.



vs.



However, polymers have their own problems, especially at the connection to the metal (stress points).

Personally, I'd stay away from them even though they are lighter. Light is good, but durable is better - for me at least. I couldn't take advantage of the few ounces weight savings offered, and if I needed more cushion for landings, I'd just use a thicker insole. I smell a lot of marketing hype for a blade that should be cheaper to make than a brazed metal  blade.

For some skaters, the loss in weight can make a huge difference in jump take-offs, landings, and how well they are able to elevate and pull into their jumps.  It can also affect spins and can affect speed and endurance levels, Spirals, etc.  Light weight blades are best paired with lightweight boots, where the savings in weight added together can become substantial.  Boots and Blades are at the extreme ends of your limbs, so it doesn't take much of a difference in weight for the skater to start to feel a noticeable impact from the lower weight components...

Using a thicker insole doesn't give you the same benefit as these blades do.  For one, the thicker insole will affect the level of control you have in your skates, since they lift your foot higher off the footblade and further from the blade itself.  It's the main reason why some boot models (like Edea) offer a thinner insole, thinner soles, or some blades (like Pattern 99) offer a lower stanchion height.  Using a thicker insole may cushion your landings more, but it comes with a compromise that the design of these blades do not have.  What these blades offer is a benefit with no downsides except maybe some clicking noises here and there.  If you couple the revolution blade with boots that have Composite/Cork heels then it's a huge difference in shock absorption (most lightweight boots are designed that way, so with the right pairing it's a huge win-win for the skater).

That being said, I wouldn't splurge for a Revolution Coronation Ace blade.  At that blade level, I just don't think it's worth it, unless the skater is doing a few doubles already and is a relatively big jumper.

[rd350]

Thanks! Nope, the skater is not doing doubles!  Barely singles and 2 foot spins.  But hoping to amp all that up, now that I'm back to skating, taking lessons and skating 3-4x/wk, usually 3.  But working on solidifying edges, turns and technique first and foremost at the moment.

7 days until my fitting with Jim at the Ice House!   

[DressmakingMomma]

I'm listening in on this thread, as dd's boots are supposed to come in next week. She loved the coro ace on her previous skates and we were planning on going with the same. There is a slight chance her old blades will fit on the new boots, but more then likely we have to buy new blades.

Her new boots are lightweight harlicks and so adding a lightweight blade should make a difference from her Jackson Premieres BUT she's only working on her single jumps. This pair should take her through her axel provided she doesn't have another huge growth spurt.

What I'm really curious about is the length of time between sharpenings. We pay $20 every 3-4 weeks and drive over an hour each way with tolls to sharpen her current coro aces, so if the blades hold an edge for a longer amount of time and I'm doing less sharpening, the revolutions might pay for themselves. I guess we'll see what our fitter says next week.

[rd350]

Interesting point about the sharpening.  I'll ask about that also when I go for the fitting next week as this guy is an expert sharpener too.

I have not had my blades sharpened since March and am skating 3x/wk, occasionally 4 but 2 local sharpeners have told me the blades seem fine.  I am going to get them sharpened next week if Jim feels they need them.  One would think by now!

[Query]

Using a thicker insole doesn't give you the same benefit as these blades do.  For one, the thicker insole will affect the level of control you have in your skates, since they lift your foot higher off the footblade and further from the blade itself.

I doubt the blade flexes by more than a mm or two, thought I don't know. So sand the outsole a similar amount to make it thinner, and you will compensate for the height-above-the-ice issue.

On the other hand, a lot of skaters prefer to be higher over the ice. It's one of the many parameters of difference between various blades, and there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on which blades are best. So if I wanted cushioning, I would add a mm or two of squishy material, then sand if I wanted to be lower over the ice.

Incidentally, flexible blades and compressible soles or shims aren't the only way to make landings softer. Virtually any land dance teacher, and many skating coaches, can show you ways to absorb landing impact smoothly into your body, instead of landing too "hard". If you are worried you might be fracturing your bones at your current skating level, it might be worth talking to your coach about this.

[rd350]

Truth be told I like the look!  I think I'm just looking for an excuse to get them!   

[Nate]

I doubt the blade flexes by more than a mm or two, thought I don't know.

That's all that's needed.  If it flexed by a quarter of an inch, then it would be impossible to jump safely in them.  The blades only need to flex a little to disperse energy and prevent it from traveling up through the boot to your foot and up through your body.  The Revolution blades achieve that better than practically anything else you can do to a skate, and with virtually no drawbacks except price and a clicking sound you may here when landing jumps.

So sand the outsole a similar amount to make it thinner, and you will compensate for the height-above-the-ice issue.

You're equating the height of the boot off the ice to the space between the actual sole of the boot and your foot.  The two aren't equateable.  Both provide similar benefits, but can be done in isolation of each other depending on what the skater needs.  Maybe I would have kept the stanchion height out of it since it just kinda of diluted my point.

Sanding the outsole is not going to eliminate the effect of your foot being further off the boot when using a thicker insole, nor will it give you back the control you can lose from putting your foot further off the sole in the boot.  Yes, it can increase control a little by putting your foot closer to the ice, but that's in isolation of the main issue I was addressing in my post.

On the other hand, a lot of skaters prefer to be higher over the ice. It's one of the many parameters of difference between various blades, and there doesn't seem to be any real consensus on which blades are best. So if I wanted cushioning, I would add a mm or two of squishy material, then sand if I wanted to be lower over the ice.

And in a couple weeks you'd be replacing it because the cushioning was gone since the material got compressed so much, assuming you're jumping regularly.  And before you noticed it, you'd probably have sore heels or other issues in the skates (heels start slipping because of the extra room, etc.).

You cannot sand off enough of the outsole safely to account for the difference between a P99 and a Gold Seal, or an Edea Boot and an SP-Teri.

The amount you'd be sanding off would be negligible compared to the difference between these blades and/or boots.

Incidentally, flexible blades and compressible soles or shims aren't the only way to make landings softer. Virtually any land dance teacher, and many skating coaches, can show you ways to absorb landing impact smoothly into your body, instead of landing too "hard". If you are worried you might be fracturing your bones at your current skating level, it might be worth talking to your coach about this.

No, there is lots of choice.

The issue isn't really the lack of choice, it's price.

Figure Skaters don't often get to test drive equipment like the newest Toyota Camry.

Some OEMs have a money back guarantee, but do you want to drill extra holes in your boots so you can test out some new blades, or risk throwing away $600+ because you mounted blades on some boots that you ended up not liking even though they were raved about by everyone else at the rink?  We often don't get to test drive, so people stick with the status quo because it works well enough for them and their skating isn't necessarily suffering from it (even if they can theoretically benefit from the better tech).  I don't blame them.  Economically it makes sense.

But really, most fitters will recommend a more appropriate boot brand (stock of custom, whatever is most appropriate) rather than put that much work into a boot, and in some cases it's simply impossible to match the other boots/blades given the solutions you've listed (some of which require monitoring as they aren't permanent).  They are useful in a pinch, especially if you cannot yet justify replacing the equipment, though, so still useful to know!

I had pennies and nickles glued to the outside of my Super Feet in my boot to level my foot off at one time, so I'm not foreign to "do-it-yourself" when you have to do something to make the skates usable.  Added a ton of weight, but it was totally worth it cause I could actually skate without feeling like I was standing on Hot Coals.

[Query]

It is conceivable the chassis is designed to better control sideways motions of the foot in the event of a mis-aligned landing (i.e., where the force is not aligned along the blade). Whether that is true would depend a lot on the exact details of the design.

BTW, I think some compressible foams can take a large number of compressions - e.g., the foams used to provide cushioning in the insoles of basketball shoes, or in sophisticated custom sports orthotics.

I would be curious to know how the lifetimes of Revolution blades compare to similar non-revolution blades, for skaters of various levels, based on real-world data. Of course, if you can afford Revolution blades, you may not care - but I hope the composite material failures will be progressive rather than catastrophic.

[rd350]

Just to follow up I had my skate fitting today and we got into blades a little bit.  Haven't decided on a boot yet so it was just a little discussion on blades.

Jim wasn't into the revolution or parabolic blades.

He was recommending Eclipse Infinity 10 1/4", or if I wanted - closer the my Coronation Aces, the Eclipse Mist 10, 10 1/4".

Any thoughts on these?

[sarahspins]

The eclipse blades are good quality, all of the skaters I know using them seem to like them - no major complaints.

[rd350]

Nice!  Do you know the difference between the Infinity and Mist?