Blade design- runners and stanchions....

[Loops]

Hello everyone,

So when I was recently researching blades, I noticed some things that piqued my curiosity.   I have been unable to find my own answers, so thought I 'd see what you all had to say.

First:  On dance blades, and the older synchro models the back stanchion is at an angle.  Why?  What, if any, advantages does that confer, and what are the sacrifices?   I imagine among those sacrifices, there's a strength issue, could say a Coronation dance (a model with a decent toepick), sustain repeated practice of a double lutz?

Second- Runner length.  I know that dance/synchro blades are short to accommodate close footwork.  But what are the sacrifices one makes by removing that tail?  I'm now skating on Vision Synchros- effectively cut off freestyle blades (the back stanchion is straight).  I do notice some things, but I don't want to color anyone else's answer, and plus, they may be [ahem] technique related as opposed to anything else.

TIA!

[Query]

Angled Stanchion:

I don't think strength is a big issue for Dance blades. And usually not for Synchro either. It's not like Synchro includes many split jumps -which can create big breaking stresses, because if you land in a partial split position, there are sideways forces not aligned with the structure of the blade. (But think of the things that could go wrong if a bunch of side-by-side skaters in close formation did split jumps at the same time!) Nor does Synchro have a lot of triples and quads (too hard to find that many really good skaters). Could the angled stanchion serve the same non-function as the engraving - tradition, appearance and style? I.E., MK did it, and everybody copied them?

Incidentally Paramount dance blade doesn't have an angled stanchion. Perhaps to save a gram or two of weight?

Note that MK and Wilson Revolution blades, which are designed to be lighter, Dance or not, have stanchions angled the other way. Perhaps because Carbon Fiber (the mounting bracket material in Revolution blades) has almost all of its strength in the tensile direction, whereas steel is only somewhat stronger under tension than compression. Shaping the stanchion that way re-distributes some of the weight support force into tension.

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Short tails:

As with hockey blades, some people complain it is to easy to accidentally roll off the back. Especially when landing a jump.

In theory short tails make it slightly easier to do forward to backwards turns, and slightly harder to track (stay on a constant arc) - which perhaps compensates for or is made up for by the thin-line grind (that makes the blade somewhat thinner at the bottom) that exists on many dance blades.

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Though I'm not really sure blade shapes are actually that rationally thought out. It's like asking why two cars aimed at the same market are differently shaped. Or why one dress is white and the other is black.

[nicklaszlo]

But what are the sacrifices one makes by removing that tail?

More falling over backwards, from what I've heard.

I'd guess the stanchions are aesthetic.  They come in a wide variety of designs.  Doesn't the mount fail first, then the boot, and the blade last?

[icedancer]

This is such an interesting topic to me (as a purveyor of dance blades and always wondering about synchro blades - but I have no answers only another question:

In theory short tails make it slightly easier to do forward to backwards turns, and slightly harder to track (stay on a constant arc) - which perhaps compensates for or is made up for by the thin-line grind (that makes the blade somewhat thinner at the bottom) that exists on many dance blades.

I don't understand the "slightly harder to track (stay on a constant arc)" - what does this mean?  I haven't noticed this about dance blades (but of course I have been wearing one form of dance blades or another for the last 20+ years - but I do notice lately that when I am practicing swing rolls that I sometimes feel... uncomfortable when passing the leg through - wondering if it has something to do with the difficulty of the arc because of the blade?

But I can do figures in them... no problem with arc or edge generally - maybe because I am not moving as quickly.

[Loops]

As with hockey blades, some people complain it is to easy to accidentally roll off the back. Especially when landing a jump.

In theory short tails make it slightly easier to do forward to backwards turns, and slightly harder to track (stay on a constant arc) - which perhaps compensates for or is made up for by the thin-line grind (that makes the blade somewhat thinner at the bottom) that exists on many dance blades.

I haven't noticed that it's more difficult to track with them, and I don't have the thin-line grind.  I was expecting to fall off the back of them, lots.  But I haven't, well after the first day- that only  happened once and I was going down whether or not I had normal length blades  .  When they asked us to do waltz jumps last week, I did some pretty big ones, in both directions even (yay synchro for that) and actually didn't even remember to be worried about the shorter blade.  Granted it was a waltz, but if they asked me to do other jumps, I wouldn't hesitate.

Hockey blades are also curved differently on the tail, so I can see that it would be easier to fall off the back of them. 

What I have noticed (I think), is that I don't have quite as much glide.  But that might also be because I'm coming off a rocker of infinity (sharpened over time to flatness) onto a new 7', in addition to other reasons.

Hmmm, now that I think about it, speed skates, which are for speed (so I guess increased glide?) not directional changes, and they're pretty long, right?

I was just curious, because pairs skaters don't use the short blades, even though in certain cases they might benefit from them.   Is it possible that's just a historical thing, kind of like the stanchion business?  If say, gold seals and their equivalents came in shorter lengths that length wouldn't necessarily affect much???

[sarahspins]

The reasoning for the shorter blades in dance (and synchro) has to do with close footwork - not something you see quite as much of in pairs, which is why they don't use shorter blades.  It's not so much to keep you from stepping on your own blade, but to make it harder to catch the heel of someone else's blade.

Interestingly enough my blades are sized to my boots and I can't step on my blade tails unless I were to REALLY try and do it an an awkward angle.. maybe it has to do with the shape of the heel counter, but I can say that it's nice to just not worry about it - I've had skates in the past that were more prone to it and there's nothing worse than going down on something as simple as a T-stop

[Query]

I think of it like a boat. Long and thin should go faster, "track" better, meaning it stays on a straight line better, and turn less well.

Dance blades are less long but thinner, so it seems like a compromise.

Of course, skates are different from boats. Only a few millimeters of length are on the ice at a time, so maybe length isn't as important. That's true for speed skaters too (though they probably use a longer length at a time, because the blades are thinner and the rocker lengths are longer - often 16-21 feet for short and long track speed skaters - I'm not sure that people who race on relatively uncurved canals and lakes use rockered blades at all) - but the speed skaters I've talked to (who BTW mostly do short track speed skating) make a point of rolling through the whole length of the blade, whereas only some of my figure skating coaches have said to do that. Many advocate staying on one part of the blade most of the time.

It might be argued that skates are more like hydroplaning tires than boats, since some studies have suggested that the liquid layer is as little as a few hundreds of nm thick at typical ice rink temperatures. There is a huge variety of tire tread shapes, so it is hard to be certain about how length affects speed.

BTW, maneuvers are important in speed skating too, because they try to sneak past each other by surprise. But they don't do full blown turns and spins or twizzles.

Every ice dance coach I've had has emphasized "neat feet" - i.e., keeping the feet very close to each other. Hard to do with long tails without tripping over the tails. And I have had an accident where a partner tripped over my blade. (Perhaps the concern with synchro skaters is tripping over each other's blades too.) For me at least, the shorter tails work better. But one of my Dance coaches used freestyle blades.

[icedancer]

Every ice dance coach I've had has emphasized "neat feet" - i.e., keeping the feet very close to each other. Hard to do with long tails without tripping over the tails. And I have had an accident where a partner tripped over my blade. (Perhaps the concern with synchro skaters is tripping over each other's blades too.) For me at least, the shorter tails work better. But one of my Dance coaches used freestyle blades.

I agree!  The shortened tails are so you don't step on your blades during turns like mohawks (for me, on the 14-step with a longer-tailed FS blade) - the blunted picks in the front (shortened) are probably so you don't spike your partner quite so much. 

There are certainly FS blades that have shorter tails than others - also the way they fit on the skate may make them appear shorter (1/4 inch of space at the end of the heel stanchion as opposed to flush with the back of the heel of the boot - if that makes any sense) - I've even seen some FS blades where the coach says to the FS skater - wow, those tails ARE long!

I think the Gold Seal actually is a little shorter than others - maybe the Gold Star as well.