Boot for adult beginner with wide feet

[dlbritton]

This is sort of a follow up to my post titled "When/What skate to buy" but the context has changed a bit. I just got the following email from the fitter I saw the other day.

I looked at your msmts. and you are off the charts, definitely a custom boot!    Jackson makes up to a quad. E width.  Let me know if I should proceed to research a custom boot.  I'll look at pricing for you, if you can go beyond the $300 cost (I think $400-ish for boot only).  I would have to trace your foot.  Takes 4-6 weeks to make.  Blade cost is separate, and you would want a strong blade (over $100, various choices).

Looks like an 8-9 quad E for you

Anyone have recommendations for skates/boots (brands, models, pitfalls).

I am currently in Adult 2 LTS so I have not been skating a great deal yet. I am definitely interested in buying skates as rental skates just are not cutting it. But I'm not sure if I want to spend $500 up for a boot/blade combo at this point.  I was hoping the Jackson Freestyle was available in a size I needed.

I have been using "Dominion" size 10 leather rental skates at the rink and they don't seem to cramp my feet even after 1 1/2 hours. The main issues I have with the skates  is a lack of side support and pressure points on top due to creases in the boot/tongue.

To recap: I am a 59 yo male, 5'11", 220 lbs. Work as a ski instructor so this is mainly an off season fitness sport. However I really like skating and plan to continue beyond the Adult Basic 1-4 curriculum. Currently I am taking one 1/2 hour lesson a week and practice 2-3 hours/week. Come December through April I will have to cut back to the 1/2 hour lesson and one 1 hour practice session.  Not sure if I would ever do jumps beyond 1/2 jumps (my knees take enough of a beating skiing 40 days a year). I am very interested in the technical challenge of figures but that will definitely require a boot beyond rentals.

Again, thanks for any advice you can offer.

[sarahspins]

You may be able to order a non-stock width from Jackson without it being a full custom order... there is a fee associated with it (similar to ordering a split width boot), but even then I don't think you'd be into the $400 range for just the boot if you were looking at something like the Freestyle, unless your pro shop is charging above and beyond typical retail prices or recommending a higher level boot for you.  The Freestyle (with blade) is typically just under $300.

HOWEVER, if you aren't having trouble with the rental skates being too narrow, it might be prudent to just start with a normal wide stock boot in the correct size, you may not even need a special width.  We now know the men's riedell 121 is available in a wide despite the fact that it's not listed on Riedells own website, and that may be the most cost-effective option since they are less than $150, however they wouldn't be expected to hold up as well as the Freestyle or a higher level Riedell like the 255.

[dlbritton]

sarahspins - the shop is actually giving me a discount off  msrp for the boot since I am taking lessons there. They did recommend the Freestyle (if it was available in a size I required). From recommendations on this site I was considering the Jackson Freestyle or Riedell 133/255. The $400 is coming from getting a boot higher than the Freestyle.

I may contact customer service with Jackson and Riedell to see what they have to say. Other posts on the site imply both compaines are responsive to calls/questions.

[aussieskater]

Sarahspins, I suspect that the issue re cost is that it sounds like dlbritton needs several widths wider than the widest available stock boot?  I don't know what is the lowest level boot Jackson will agree to modify to this extent, but it might only start at the Premiere; they might not be able to modify the Freestyle so wide.  That would account for dlbritton needing a higher level boot than the Freestyle.

Looking at the recommended Freestyle model on the Jackson website, the widest available size is "wide", which I'm guessing might equate to a D width on an A-B-C-D scale.  The recent email from the dealer said he is an 8-9 quad E, which is 4 widths wider than that.  That will significantly increase the cost from stock.

This is a completely off-the-wall suggestion, but who makes the "Dominion" boots?  If they don't cause you pain, maybe you could look into new ones from that maker?  Might take some internet hunting around, but if they have a last which fits you, it might be worth the effort?

[sampaguita]

I emailed Jackson recently, and they said they only modify boots Premiere and up. They don't offer semi-customs for the Freestyle -- they're only available up to the D width, if I remember correctly.

[dlbritton]

This is a completely off-the-wall suggestion, but who makes the "Dominion" boots?  If they don't cause you pain, maybe you could look into new ones from that maker?  Might take some internet hunting around, but if they have a last which fits you, it might be worth the effort?

Googling for "dominion skate" I found several references to an entry level/recreational boot which sounds like the ones I have been renting. Apparently that is the only boot they make. They also make roller skates and skate boards.

Part of the reason the skates fit is they are close to broken down so they fit loose. The original construction is one thin layer of leather.  The fitter showed me a pair of Jackson Freestyle boots and the side construction is definitely much stiffer and robust.

They also may fit looser because I am using a size 10 but my measurement for Jackson is in the 8-9 range. I realize sizes are not consistent across boot manufacturers but all boots appear to grow in width as the size goes up. From other posts on this forum and my own experience with ski boots I know not to get a boot that is too long in order to gain some width. That may work at a lower level but as soon as I start advancing it would cause problems both with my feet and with my skating.

The big quandry is related to going with a high end boot so it can be modified for my foot. From posts here the suggestion has been to start with an intermediate level boot and see how it works before moving on to higher level boots. That may also involve a change of brand. Additionally I am concerned with going with a fairly stiff boot (whatever a 69 on the Jackson scale really means), but I do see it is a bit stiffer than the Freestyle. I know from skiing that having a good boot is critical but at the same time too high end of a boot could hinder rather enhance advancement. I am sure the same applies with skating.

Cost isn't a show stopper but at the same time the thought of dropping $500 up on my first pair of boots/blades does take my breath away.  The shop offers a 10% discount for LTS students and 20% on a second pair so I will see if they will give me 20% on a higher end purchase.

If I do go forward with this are there any recommendations for blades? Are there design features of higher end blades that make them unsuitable for beginners or is the main difference in blades the quality of construction and materials? I realize I would use a different ROH as a beginner than a freestyle skater would use, but I assume any blade can take any desired radius. If I am going to spend $400 on boots I may bite the bullet and spend $200-$250 on blades rather than $100 if I would ultimately benefit from having the better blade as long as the better blade would not hinder my progress.

I do appreciate the feedback I am getting.

(As I write this I am looking at my application, due tomorrow,  for the December PSIA academy which is $434 + $750 for food/lodging/transportation). These ice/snow sports aren't cheap. 

[sarahspins]

Given that you are a ski instructor and are likely to have have more leg/foot muscle development than the average person, you would "probably" be okay with the Premiere.  Yes, it would absolutely be stiffer than what is required, but as far as it being so stiff that it will prevent proper ankle bend, only you would be able to determine that upon trying them on.  If you can, while standing, bend your ankles and push your knees beyond your toes (vertically) then they will probably be fine.

slcbelle (also a ski instructor) started skating in Premiere's and while those boots didn't work out for a variety of reasons relating to fit, I don't think "too stiff" is one of the problems she had with them - initially they seemed to be fine.  One of the problems she had, which is one that a lot of Jackson skaters with a wider foot report, is that as her boots broke in and the padding began to compress, her heel began to slip inside of her boot.  I think (though it's possible I may be wrong!) that they were also a half size to full size too long as well, which only compounds the problem.  Most of us with a wider ball have split width boots to compensate for the looser heel.  Those who don't swear that their next pair will have it, or that they'll be trying another brand.  I wear an E ball with a B heel, I could probably even consider an A heel, but I haven't yet experienced any heel slipping in my skates (currently or with my previous pair, also split width).  Opting for a narrower heel is definitely something to discuss with your fitter - sometimes they can tell by looking at your feet if your heel is narrower in relation to the ball of your foot, sometimes it's simply trial and error (expensive trial and error, but on the flip side of that, once you know you need it, it's an easy modification to request, and I would expect that most people wearing a split width in one brand would continue to require it in another).

As far as blades, no reason you can't opt for something like the MK Professional, Wilson Coronation Ace, Ultima Legacy (or Matrix Legacy) or the Eclipse Mist.  All of those blades are likely to be as high level as you would ever require (and can easily handle double jumps - some kids even do triples in them).  Upgrading once you have solid spins and single jumps is just a personal preference, it's not a requirement, plus blades can often outlast boots, so you may even be able to move whatever blades you get now to your next pair.

[fsk8r]

I agree with Sarahspins with regards to blades. The only other blade to consider if you want to save a few dollars is the Ultima Mirage which is slightly lower in level than the ones being suggested. But even that is perfectly fine to take you through all your single jumps.

And so you don't necessarily panic on your boots, when I bought my boots I was told by the pro shop that as an adult, you can afford to spend more money on good boots as they will last longer (won't break down so quickly) but that it's best to buy a blade appropriate for your level (the advice for kids was different because they'll grow out the boots before they break them down in most cases). Some of the higher end blades can hinder beginners as the sweet spot can be smaller making it harder to balance when learning to spin.

[dlbritton]

I have been emailing Lee with Riedell Skates and he is recommending I try a stock  255 TS mens 9 Wide (EE width) , which they do have in stock. ( Thumbs up to Riedell for their responsiveness). From my measurements that should fit. He suggested ordering a boot with no blade attached so if it doesn't fit then I can return it and discuss options then. The 910LS is also a possibility and is available in a 9 wide as well.

I am meeting with the fitter at the rink tomorrow night and plan to order the 255. She mainly handles Jackson but has ordered custom boots from Riedell in the past and has worked with Lee so I feel pretty comfortable going this route.

I just got back from public skating and definitely need something stiffer than rental boots. I am getting very comfortable and fairly consistent with forward inside circles but still struggle with forward outside circles. Part of this is the feeling that the boot is collapsing to the outside on the arc rather than me being aligned properly for the arc.

I am getting lots of good advice on this site from other postings besides my own.

Were you able to try flexing the ankle in the 255's when you tried them on?  If you could easily bend your knee forward past your toes then you would probably be okay in them.

I will definitely check this when the boots come.

I do have a question about the 255TS vs the 910LS. I see the 910 has a lower cut back. Lee indicated the 910 makes bending the knee a little easier but does give up a little in support. What are the advantages and disadvantages of the 910 over the 255?

[sarahspins]

Some skaters like the lower back because it facilitates pointing your toes, but at the cost of longevity and stability.  If you were planning on doing dance, the boot may be a consideration for you, but a vast majority of the skaters at my rink use riedells with the more traditional back - the ones who have tried the LS series haven't really liked them.  The coaches at my rink don't seem to be big fans either.

As far as outside edges - what I have noticed personally from teaching is that most skaters struggle with outside edges in rental skates.  If they happen to get a less broken down pair some can manage them okay, but given that the general public wearing rental skates almost always wears them too large and doesn't lace them tightly enough, most of the rental boots tend to break down rapidly, so it's almost impossible to find a pair that has good support.  I suspect that the issue of edges is also why my rink strongly encourages skaters to get their own skates by the time they reach Basic 4 (when edges are first introduced).  Secondary to that, some skaters find it difficult to shift their weight enough to lean into the circle, if you don't, you'll tend to fall to an inside edge no matter what the condition of your skates.  You can practice the weight shift and lean "into" the circle off-ice, just stand with your feet about shoulder width apart (unlike on-ice where they should be closer together), shift your weight to one side, and then lift the opposite foot, while you are balancing on one foot, try to lean further towards the side you are standing on.  Keeping the feet apart while you stand off-ice helps you really feel the weight shift in the transition from two feet to one foot.  On ice with your feet closer together it can be more difficult to feel the weight shift in that transition, but it is essentially the same.

[dlbritton]

Fitter has ordered a Riedell 255TS 9W  . May be in by Tuesday so I can try it on for fit after Adult 3 class.
Got my fingers crossed this is the boot.

If the boot does fit then we will order a blade.

[dlbritton]

Riedell shipped a 255 TS in a 9 1/2 Wide which felt okay. No heel slip and width feels good but I am a little concerned about the length. The fitter is going to see if Riedell has a 9 Wide as well so we can compare the two.  I figure I will know which of the two is the correct fit.

I was able to flex the boot  like saraspins suggested:

Given that you are a ski instructor and are likely to have have more leg/foot muscle development than the average person, you would "probably" be okay with the Premiere.  Yes, it would absolutely be stiffer than what is required, but as far as it being so stiff that it will prevent proper ankle bend, only you would be able to determine that upon trying them on.  If you can, while standing, bend your ankles and push your knees beyond your toes (vertically) then they will probably be fine.

Then it will be on to choosing a blade.

[dlbritton]

Riedell 9 Wide has been shipped. Got my fingers crossed one of these 2 boots (9W or 9 1/2W) feels/fits right. I am ready to get out of rental boots.

The rink has some brand new Softec skates and I am the only person that has used one of the pairs of skates. They put a 1/2" ROH rather than the standard 5/8" ROH on that pair because I commented I was skidding around on them. I can tell a difference in the new radius.

[dlbritton]

The Riedell 255 TS 9 Wide came in and I have tried it on as well as the 9 1/2W.

I believe the 9 1/2W would definitely be too long.

The 9W fits snug but no cramping or crunching of my toes. I did have one pressure point on top of my left pinkie toe which I believe is from the tongue.
I am trying the boots on again Monday night and am going to take some polypropylene sock liners to use. They are even thinner than my ski socks.

I do have some questions about what to look for with the fit. My toes do not hit the end of the boot but I can definitely "sense" the end of the boot. I can lift my toes up and also curl them under some. The width seems good. Snug but no pressure points on the sides. These are heat moldable so that should adjust for any pressure points. The heel seems snug. I can lift up on my heel and relieve the pressure but it doesn't feel like my heel actually comes off the footbed.  The fitter had me kick (snap) my foot out to see if the heel lifted any, which it did not.  When I stand on the footbed outside of the boot there is a at least 1/2 inch past my toes left in the center, but the footbed is much narrower than my foot so it doesn't go past on the sides at all. The toe box of the boot is certainly more pointed than any of my shoes or hiking boots.  I am able to flex forward in the boot. I will need better (ie orthotic) footbeds. My arches were cramping some from being pressed down on by the boot, but I experience that in ski boots without really good support.

Based on the above anything else I should be looking for and trying? I don't want to get a boot that is either too long or too tight, but with this being the first boot it is hard to know what to look for.

[aussieskater]

I do have some questions about what to look for with the fit.

The 9W fits snug but no cramping or crunching of my toes. I did have one pressure point on top of my left pinkie toe which I believe is from the tongue.  My toes do not hit the end of the boot but I can definitely "sense" the end of the boot. I can lift my toes up and also curl them under some. The width seems good. Snug but no pressure points on the sides.  These are heat moldable so that should adjust for any pressure points. The heel seems snug. I can lift up on my heel and relieve the pressure but it doesn't feel like my heel actually comes off the footbed.  The fitter had me kick (snap) my foot out to see if the heel lifted any, which it did not. 

This all sounds very promising.  Are your toes able to lie side by side and straight with absolutely no overlapping toes or squished toenail corners?  They'll thank you for double checking that before you buy the boots.

I am trying the boots on again Monday night and am going to take some polypropylene sock liners to use. They are even thinner than my ski socks.

As far as what to wear in your boots, most skaters down here wear no more than very fine socks at most.  Many wear skating tights or knee high tights, and some skaters go barefoot (hard core!)

[sarahspins]

Since you seem more versed in socks than most, liners are just fine - they are about the same "weight" as the other things being suggested.  What you don't want is anything too thick or anything textured.

[dlbritton]

Decided on the 9 Wide after trying them on again tonight. A little snug but definitely not too tight. Toes are not cramped in the end. I tried them with Jackson Elite foot beds in place of the standard flat grey footbed.

Now I wait for the blades which were ordered last week but did not ship until today because the factory was taking inventory. Hopefully I will be on the ice with them on Thursday or Friday.

I am psyched.  Now the fun can really begin.

As an aside, I start wearing my two "winter" hats now. This past weekend I attended the rehire/safety training clinic at the ski resort I teach at. Group skate lessons end just before Thanksgiving and don't start back until January so I will be doing 2-3 adult only practice sessions during December. Come January I will be limited to 1 group lesson and 1 practice session a week.

[dlbritton]

Blades came in yesterday (yah!) but the guy that does the mounting is out until late next week (bah!).  So I wait a little longer. Still I am psyched.

As a side note I want to express my appreciation for this site and the knowledge I have gained. I would not have thought about Sno-Seal on the soles of the boots. I asked the fitter about it and she said the mounter will do it before the permanent mount.

[dlbritton]

Hoorah!!     Blades were mounted over the weekend so I was able to use the skates in my lesson tonight.  In the 30 minute lesson time I could tell a big difference over rental boots, especially on outside edges.

I'll be able to get in an hour on Thursday during adult only skate. Can't wait to have full ice.

They still have the factory sharpening (the sharpener the fitter recommends using won't be around until the 27th) but seemed okay for now.

I have been skating on a 1/2" ROH in the rental boots they set up for me. Is that a good radius to start with or should I consider a 7/16"  radius (which is deeper/sharper if I have the math correct)? I just realized I don't know what the factory edge is so I do need to find that out since they seemed okay tonight. I have Jackson Ultima Aspire XP blades if anyone might happen to know what Jackson uses as the factory edge.

[icedancer]

I would go with the 1/2 inch ROH.  This is probably what the factory sharpening is.

If you don't like it then you can play around with different hollows but at this point you have a lot to deal with breaking in new boots and blades.

Congratulations!