cheating?

[hopskipjump]

From my own observations, I'm not convinced that a Pre-pre skater competing against a no test skater is an outrageous miss match.  

Here there is a huge difference.

I like the casual "hey, I think there was a typo" comment to an official.  I would assume it was an honest mistake as well.  

[FigureSpins]

Forget all the stalking you've done and the outrage you've raised in yourself - it was useless.  This is not about you unless you start working yourself up to make a scene; you're blowing this out of proportion.  No one is asking you to be the vigilante of skating competitions.  You saw a mistake, now point it out to the appropriate chairpeople and let the error be corrected by them.

You don't have a skater in this competition, so you're a neutral party doing your part to help the competition run smoothly.  It's logical that you would catch the error since your DD has a friend in that event.  It's not favoritism or anything like that and no one's going to criticize or praise you for pointing out an obvious error on the schedule.  

Just send/leave the short message with the competition chair and/or the club test chair.  The chairpeople need to know as soon as possible, so they can correct the mistake without it being the big blow-up you seem to be seeking with your dithering.  The fewer people involved, the better, since obviously no one verified the kid's skating level.  

The chairpeople aren't going to go blabbing that you caught an error that they, the coaches and the parents missed.  They won't announce that so-and-so pointed out their mistake.  They're not going to send out a press release or even talk about the situation with any of the other competitors; they'll check the facts and either scratch the skater or change the skater's event.  They want to fix the schedule and get the competition underway as smoothly as possible.  But, they need time to do that, so just send the short note and get it started.  The longer you wring your hands and hope that someone notices your distress, the more time is wasted on ineffective emotions.

thank you figure.  That was one of the senarios I was bouncing in my head.  I really feel in a bad situation.  If dd's friend and mom found out I knew the girl was in the wrong category, lets face it, they would probably be very angry with me for not saying something.  And if I said something to them, then they have the added worry.   Really I can't win in this situation, because someone will be upset with me, either the pre-pre no test camp or dd's friend and family.

[FigureSpins]

Huge difference here between No Test and Pre-Prel.

[sarahspins]

I think your pre-pre has axels and stuff, right?

Not on the test, no... but kids usually have an axel (and often doubles) by the time they test and compete at that level.. you basically need an axel to be competitive, which is why no test exists - it's for the kids who don't have it yet, not necessarily the kids who "can't" pass the test.  Axels aren't "required" on any test until Juvenile, which is the 4th freeskate test.

I could see someone having tested up pretty high in moves but not testing any freeskate levels if they didn't have an axel yet... moves may be a good indicator of overall skating skills, but they really can't tell you much about jumping or spinning ability.  Sure someone who has passed intermediate should be able to pass pre-pre (and likely higher) tests without a problem, but if they lack the jumps to be competitive there would be no reason to do so, no matter what their moves level was.

Pre-pre is a really basic test - it doesn't even require a program, you simply skate the elements (waltz jump, salchow, 1/2 flip and 1/2 lutz, plus a one foot spin) for the judge and the test is scored pass/fail.  It's extremely unusual for someone to not pass the pre-pre moves or freeskate tests.  There is a HUGE disconnect though, between what is required for the test and what a skater needs to be able to do to be competitive in competition.

[Schmeck]

I'm feeling rather under the weather right now, so I can't seem to get the USFSA rulebook to open up online. I thought there was a clause about being allowed to compete in nonquals by one level above or below, according to the club running the competition?

Also, if the skater is in the wrong level (but maybe not a a nonqual event) isn't there some kind of a sanction against them?

[FigureSpins]

Why would the OP want to file a sanction against someone else's skater that isn't even competing against her DD?  She saw something she thinks is an error.  It's a No Test event.  Just tell the chairs about the schedule error and let them handle it appropriately.  Then, MYOB. 

The competition chairperson will deal with it and decide if they need to notify anyone else, such as US Figure Skating or the past competition chairpeople.  Let them do their job as discreetly as possible.  I don't see any benefit from publicly trying to humiliate the skater, parents or coaches.

[Schmeck]

Didn't say the OP wanted to get sanctions in place - did I? I think I just stated that if one knowingly competes in the wrong division/level, then it is a sanctionable offense. I am under the weather, but I was just putting the rules (as I remember them) out there. If we don't play by the rules, what's the point?

In my little corner of the skating world, it would be a great offense to test a FS level, then knowingly compete at a lower level if it was not allowed at the competition. Of course, everyone would know it, and people would catch it before the skater even got to the rink for the competition. Since USFSA publishes tests passed (and most clubs put the results online and on the club bulletin board) it's not a secret. I'm surprised that the skater has done this so many times, and no one has caught it. That's why I'm leaning towards my first bit of info - that nonquals have more flexible rules, and some let you compete up or down a level. Why would a coach risk losing credentials for a pre-pre skater? 

[FigureSpins]

Also, if the skater is in the wrong level (but maybe not a a nonqual event) isn't there some kind of a sanction against them?

Didn't say the OP wanted to get sanctions in place - did I? I think I just stated that if one knowingly competes in the wrong division/level, then it is a sanctionable offense.

It's a no-test event in a non-qualifying competition.  To enact a sanction, someone has to file a formal, written grievance with the USFSA.  The OP asked what to do.  You bought up sanctions-of course I assumed you wanted her to file a formal grievance and asked if you really thought that was necessary at this level? LOL

I think my solution of contacting the chairperson to report the error is much more appropriate.  If they feel additional actions are needed, the onus will be on them to file the grievance, but I doubt they would for such a low-level event.  It would be like using a bazooka to kill a mosquito.  If they felt it was intentional, they could deliver justice just by scratching her from the event and not refunding the entry fee.

I don't see anything in the rulebook that lets a skater "skate down" a level.  Some competitions will allow singles skaters to "skate up" one level, yes, but skating down, nah, not that I've ever seen.

Maybe you're thinking of Synchro, where the levels are pretty loosey-goosey, but that wouldn't apply to singles.  Maybe someone else can find something to support your skate down theory, but I've never heard of that before for a freeskate event.

[Schmeck]

I'd think that if anyone wanted to, they could complain and file, though. Multiple offenses, doesn't seem like the coach or skater care that they are breaking rules?

Would I file? No, I'd call my friend the judge and get her advice.

Would I advise others to file? If the person was on the board of the club, any club, that this skater competed at, yes. Just a parent or skater on the sidelines? Only if this skater was in a competition I was involved in. If you knowingly let it continue, aren't you part of the problem?

We've had smaller competitions (singles, not synchro) where the levels were combined, and called by the lower one. Mostly the adult levels though.

Synchro actually has stricter rules - no team skating up or down, many age limitations and definite MITF tests that must be passed to be eligible. You can test higher than your level (which does seem loosey-goosey, but is also allowed in singles MITF) but you must be of a certain age and have passed a specific level. Open levels are well, a bit more open, but have averages that have to be followed.   

[icedancer]

Another thing to do would be to simply ask the skater (or maybe the parents) directly, since you seem to know them:

"Did you pass your pre-pre freestyle test?  If so, then why did you compete at such-and-such a competition at "no test" level?

Maybe they didn't really pass the test in the first place.

Otherwise I would leave it alone because if you can't let this stuff bother you because you will see perceived "unfair"ness at all the levels of skating.

Been there. Done that.

[falen]

i just email the chairman to look into the error.  That is all.  no sanctions! they  are just kids.  if the coach gets in trouble, well she should know better. 

[Schmeck]

Kids should learn to follow rules too, right? Not saying the skater should be banned for life from USFSA competitions, but having to return medals won in the past when skating at the wrong level, yes.

icedancer2, I'm thinking you may be correct - the skater didn't actually pass the pre-pre test.

[isakswings]

hi,  I just looked at a competition schedule and noticed something.  A girl took her Pre Pre FREE SKATE test in January and passed (we were there to congratulate).  She just competed this weekend at no test (and won) and she is scheduled to compete at no test again.  To make sure, I looked up the tests recieved for January on the USFS website and sure enough there she was under Pre Pre Free Skate.  SHould I say something?  She is competing against a very close friend who is truly no test, not to mention the other girls.

It sounds like she should not be skating non-test. However, it would depend on when the form was due. If she had passed the test after submitting the form, she is fine to skate in that level. If the deadline was indeed March, like you say, then no, she should not be in no-test. Would I say something? I dunno. It could have been an oversight. Around here, coaches and a club officer have to sign competition forms. What does your club do? I would tread carefully. Good luck!

[isakswings]

I know it happens.  DD's first big time comp at no test had 2 girls who passed intermediate moves test, but no frees.  I saw that test...if you can pass those moves, you can skate pre preliminary at least!

Moves have nothing to do with freeskate levels. It is possible that those kids didn't have the jumps needed to move up(ie: axels). Some coaches really push moves, others don't. My daughter will be working on Juvenile moves in preliminary with the goal to take and pass them in December/January. Then she will be on to intermediate moves. I knew a girl skating pre-pre who passed her intermediate moves but was definitely a pre-pre skater as fas as jumps and spins went. On the other hand, you have my dd's friend who skates at the Juv level but is only on her Juv moves. It really depends on the individual. My daughter's coach wants to try and get her moves to be 2 levels above her skating level. Another coach at our rink usually has their skaters moves 2-3 levels above their skating level. It really varies from skater to skater.

[isakswings]

how about I just write to have them look into a possible error.  Because back to my original thing, dd's friend will be competing against her.  and a group of other kids and they really deserve a fair shot.  No point in writing to the comps that have already happened, she got the gold move on.  Of course I could see how happy the girl who got silver would be to find out she got gold because the other girl was entered incorrectly.  Gee its like 2002 oly!  

Oh should I give the mom a heads up?  I don't want to worry her needlessly if this plan will prevent any badness.

The reason why I post here is that I get a better perspective from a third party that has no stakes in the matter.  Normally, I'd ask a friend, but all the friends would pretty much have a stake in the outcome.  So I really appreciate the responces.

edited to add, sounds like the OP has emailed the competition chair. Good luck Oh and I do not think the child should be told to give back the medals earned at previous competitions. I would imagine the skater has no idea herself, that it is not ok to skate non-test. Oh and around here, there isn't a huge difference between non-test and pre-pre. The pre-pre skaters might be a little more polished then the NT skaters, but they all skate with similar elements minus the axel in NT.

I would not involve your friend. In fact, I would keep quiet about it. No sense in worrying the kid or the parent about it. Honestly, if the coach is putting her student in the wrong level and the kid wins, she isn't doing the kid any favors. My daughter skates preliminary. She is not a strong preliminary skater. We moved her up because she CAN land a 2 sal and sometimes lands other doubles. This will challenge her more then pre-pre and force her to practice her doubles. She has good spins and is working on foot work. We don't do this for the medals, we do it for the reward of hard work. If she wins, GREAT but honestly, it isn't about winning. That's a fun little bonus. Is it fair for a kid to skate down? No, it isn't. But I think instead of focusing on if she is in the wrong level, the better focus would be to focus on how your friend does and hoot and hollar for her. You never know what will happen.

[Schmeck]

A skater passing a freestyle test, getting congratulated on it, (and a certificate, maybe a pin or badge or medal) and not knowing she just moved up a level? How old is this skater we're talking about?

[hopskipjump]

You get a certificate about half a page in size and an email/survey.  My daughter doesn't see the email - but I'll ask her the questions and respond for her, and I don't know if she noticed the certificates - they are on a wall with her skating stuff - for her the judge sheet is very interesting, a certificate is more scrapbookish.  If her coach said "you are skating this event/level" she wouldn't question it...her coach is in charge.  She is just a kid.

[Sk8tmum]

My kids get a small party.  So they notice!

[hopskipjump]

LOL - I must be "the mean mom".     For her the big party event is getting to eat from the judge's table!

[Sk8tmum]

LOL - I must be "the mean mom".     For her the big party event is getting to eat from the judge's table!

Small = latte or hot chocolate and a trip for ice cream with the family! Seriously though, every test passed is extensively debriefed with the coach, including the implications for future comps. There is no way that they would have ever not known their skating levels, even when they were tinies. They have always been expected to be fully informed and able to discuss such things, as part of the skaters expectations of their coaches.

[hopskipjump]

Sure she knows her levels, but not comp rules.  She wouldn't know you can skate a level up for example so why would a kid know you can't skate down a level? 

I am betting that there was some technicality with her test/filing - maybe her club reported the test to USFS but the skater didn't pay for the test yet so when the club did the approval they had left her at the lower level until fees were up to date or maybe someone just skipped an entry(for example) or maybe USFS checked the wrong column.  I guess I am more willing to believe it was either totally okay (maybe she registered far in advance) or there was some document issue, or even a typo before I would believe that a coach and family intentionally broke the rules and skated down a level because the comp lists and test lists are so public.

[falen]

goodness, it seems pretty common here.  A mom told me that a canadian  kid (in her teens) is competing in US at no test and took canadian preliminary freeskate test.  (I have a post asking the difference because I am thinking that maybe the tests are not equivalent. ) 

[Sk8tmum]

goodness, it seems pretty common here.  A mom told me that a canadian  kid (in her teens) is competing in US at no test and took canadian preliminary freeskate test.  (I have a post asking the difference because I am thinking that maybe the tests are not equivalent. ) 

No our preliminary test is not like yours, and we don't have moves in the field requirements for testing.

[falen]

the first girl in question was moved to  pre pre.  So now everyone is on edge and being vigilant (on the competitiors that is)

[Schmeck]

falen, thanks for the update!